should i consider dubbing a whole feature with minimum dialog ?

I personally think its insane to even consider shooting without sound, its kinds symptomatic of the problem that people think its all about the camera and the image quality (Perceived).

A question to people that dont have much experience in sound, how many times have you watched peoples work and thought 'man that sound is awful'.
And you think you can make it better in post/ADR?
No chance, its a full on skill.
 
i never said it's not important for ME, quite the opposite. i do think it's the greatest 'secret' weapon for an effective film work (script/acting/directing aside).
that's why i try to come up with my best options on a no-budget production, especially focusing on my options with recording non dialog scenes.
every short stuff i've done would've turned out pretty lousy without me perfecting every aspect sound wise.
 
Ah yes good to hear.
I think my post sounded directed at you, sorry, I was just talking in general :-)
 
roel z,

I'm usually one of the big anti ADR voices but since others have covered that well I will give a bit of the flip side since it may apply.

While it is absolutely true that big budget films shot in english use production dialog almost exclusively, that is not nec. the case with non english features.

IF a very significant portion of your audience is going to be watching a dubed version of your film then it may make sense to dub all languages.

A classic example of this is the Italian "spaghetti westerns". They were shot more like silent films with a shot list and a scenario and then the "dubbed" dialog was created later. Also Hong Kong ation films are shot with out sound mostly.

I mention these because your in Israel and I'm not sure how your film market works.

IF your shooting and releasing in the same language, and dubbing only if it gets picked up for international distribution then I would stay away from ADR.


As to having to add "all the other stuff", you should be doing that anyway. All those big budget films that don't do ADR (much) DO do a lot of Foley and replace pretty much every sound (including the backgrounds and ambiences), except the dialog, in post.
 
I'd try to shoot the sound on set if at all possible, with ADR as a fallback. A lot of good reasons have been brought up -- you need to record the ADR correctly, you have to cut it to be in sync with the actors original performance correctly, and you have to mix it properly to sound natural...

But I'd say the biggest danger is --- a lot of actors just can't loop. Can't sync, or can't recreate the performance, or both. And the talent level the actor displays on set has no correlation with how well they will do on the ADR stage. So it's sort of a crap shoot. Unless you have the actors audition at adr as well before you cast them.....

I will say this, in case you go the ADR-only route -- I find that theatrically trained actors are generally better at looping than actors with only film experience. But that's no guarantee...
 
roei z said:
so you personally won't even consider shooting MOS where no dialog needed ?
Click to expand...

Hmnn...no dialog eh.

Im just of the opinion that a good sound engineer needs just as much knowledge and experience as any other profession, so in most cases its unreasonable to expect to be able to recreate a real natural sound, unless you have the resources to make that happen.
Even a nice mic on your hotshoe will at least give you some backup.

Post can be such hard work.
 
thanks guys.
so to sum it up:
- yes, avoid ADR at all costs.
- non dialog shooting: record as much all around ambiance sound as you can (could this be done even with the DR100 own mics?)
- and never, never compromise on dialog (all the boom+shotgun+recorder discussions etc..)

ok?
 
I did this clip for a film using VocAlign software. You'll see the original distorted audio, then the replaced audio with no effects, then the replaced audio with Foley and effects. It worked out pretty good, but it took me like 6 hours to get this done. The actor had 113 takes just trying to get his intensity right. He couldn't do it all the way through so I broke it into sentences for him. He had no idea how to mimic himself. He just thought it'd be like doing the scene again, not realizing we have to copy his original performance for it to look right. VocAlign helped for sure, but man the whole thing was a nightmare. ADR should be saved for helicopter scenes and things like that where there is no way to get usable audio.


I did this as a little joke:
 
roei z said:
so to sum it up:
- yes, avoid ADR at all costs.
- non dialog shooting: record as much all around ambiance sound as you can (could this be done even with the DR100 own mics?)
- and never, never compromise on dialog (all the boom+shotgun+recorder discussions etc..)
Click to expand...

Correct.

BTW, of you are doing lots of interiors you may want to look into a cardioid mic for capturing production dialog.

When you record dialog be sure that you get copious room tones after completing the scene; they really make dialog editing a lot easier. Some disagree, but I am a big proponent of capturing lots of sound FX from the set as well - doors, chairs, items handled by the talent, etc. Low/no/micro-budget filmmakers do not have access to expensive/extensive sound libraries, so expending the extra time and effort to collect these sounds after shooting the scene has been completed can be a help when doing the audio post on a project.

Of course, doing a proper audio post takes a great deal of either time/effort or money. You need to remove all of the "silence" between lines of dialog and replace with room tone and replace the actors actions with Foley. More precisely crafted sound FX can have a huge impact on a project, as does a carefully crafted mix. I spend 1 hour per linear minute of film for each audio post category - dialog editing, Foley, Sound FX, mix and misc. For a 100 minute film that's 500 hours of work, and if I had the budgets I would easily double or triple that. Of course, with a "real" budget I would retain folks better qualified than I to do the Foley and a few other things.

Sound is half of the experience.​
 
the 400 Blows was all ADR/Foley/FX as was most of Welles' European films, as a few examples. These were all done for almost no budget as well. It's highly possible for it to work out well, just the time and passion are required.
 
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i think this is a deeper discussion-
related to the times those movies were made.
as someone mentioned "spaghetti westerns", i think that 50 years ago the film sound was on a very different level, and also audience habits and expectations.
so you could get away with good ADR post work, and somehow people would also accept the dialog replacement, even without the same level of real time acting.
hell i can watch good bad & ugly and enjoy myself, even when i still know it's average 60's ADR
 
Indeed, it also comes down to what kind of filmmaker you feel you are. There are some (nothing at all wrong with this) who prefer clean crips perfect picture and sound. No noise (digital or film grain) ... perfect audio sync'd ideally with live dialogue and then Foley and FX done in NUMEROUS tracks in post ...

Then there is the more Cassavetes school of thought where you make it cuz you want to and need to, you make the "poor-ness" work for you. Embrace the grain, embrace the fact you must do all ADR/Foley/etc and make it your own and love the dirt

for Truffaut in the 400 Blows it was a choice to do all ADR/Foley, he grew up loving the films that were re-dubbed in French and enjoyed the aesthetic of it, if you make it your passion and embrace it ... anything at any quality can work imo

You just need to decide where your school of thought lies. Neither is right or wrong
 
I've done both on short films. Here are my results:

I recorded sound very well for my Fiction Fest entry. Actually my sound girl did, she made it look so easy. A simple shotgun mic on a boom plugged into a Zoom H4. She stuck the mic as close as possible outside the frame, and she recorded the actors perfectly. I then had to sync the audio files to the video, this was a pain, but it was worth it. Once i was done, no ADR needed! And the performances sounded real, I could hear breathing and clothing scuffles and it was legit.

So part of me wants to say just do sound the old school way, with a boom.

I also ADR'ed a 10 minute short. I didn't think it was too hard, i figured out a few methods that i'm pretty sure noone does. But it works for me. Keep in mind I'm also a sound engineer and own a professional recording studio so i knew what i was doing. But still... it's a lot of work getting the sound mix on the vocals to feel like the actors were speaking in their original locations.

my overall winner? Location sound. Don't shy away from it. But ADR is still very doable if you really want to give it a try.
 
Matt Harris said:
I've done both on short films. Here are my results:

I recorded sound very well for my Fiction Fest entry. Actually my sound girl did, she made it look so easy. A simple shotgun mic on a boom plugged into a Zoom H4. She stuck the mic as close as possible outside the frame, and she recorded the actors perfectly. I then had to sync the audio files to the video, this was a pain, but it was worth it. Once i was done, no ADR needed! And the performances sounded real, I could hear breathing and clothing scuffles and it was legit.

So part of me wants to say just do sound the old school way, with a boom.

I also ADR'ed a 10 minute short. I didn't think it was too hard, i figured out a few methods that i'm pretty sure noone does. But it works for me. Keep in mind I'm also a sound engineer and own a professional recording studio so i knew what i was doing. But still... it's a lot of work getting the sound mix on the vocals to feel like the actors were speaking in their original locations.

my overall winner? Location sound. Don't shy away from it. But ADR is still very doable if you really want to give it a try.
Click to expand...

sure, i never once thought ADR can outperform production sound in any way.
i guess i'm trying to think - is it possible to turn ADR disadvantages to advantages :)
but for that, i need to see some examples of modern movies made mostly out of ADR.
any ideas ?
will it be possible to see some kind of sample from your ADR 10 minutes film ?
 
ironically i have not released the short yet because it needs a VFX pass. (I'll see if i can send you a clip). Another thing to consider is the type of acting. Any scenes with emotional performances are going to be tough in the ADR booth. Whereas if you are doing a film noir and the delivery is pretty straight forward and monotone, that shouldn't be too hard.
My short was all "tough guy" talk so admittedly it was easy to ADR.
 
Chadfish said:
I did this clip for a film using VocAlign software. You'll see the original distorted audio, then the replaced audio with no effects, then the replaced audio with Foley and effects. It worked out pretty good, but it took me like 6 hours to get this done. The actor had 113 takes just trying to get his intensity right. He couldn't do it all the way through so I broke it into sentences for him. He had no idea how to mimic himself. He just thought it'd be like doing the scene again, not realizing we have to copy his original performance for it to look right. VocAlign helped for sure, but man the whole thing was a nightmare. ADR should be saved for helicopter scenes and things like that where there is no way to get usable audio.


I did this as a little joke:
Click to expand...


you see guys? :)
is the ADR THAT distinguishable?

the first video is a very hard scene to ADR, it's indoor with not a lot of ambiance, realistic, and contains front passionate dialog.
and i don't think i would have guessed it was ADR. my film have far far less hard scenes like that+ it's not really realistic.
you brought up a great example of basically unused location sound and resolving the issue perfectly.
thanks Chadfish.

the second video was a big LOL, partly on the girl's account.. she turns out like a transvestite:tongue:

great work on both videos.
 
unclebob6958 said:
Correct.

BTW, of you are doing lots of interiors you may want to look into a cardioid mic for capturing production dialog.

When you record dialog be sure that you get copious room tones after completing the scene; they really make dialog editing a lot easier. Some disagree, but I am a big proponent of capturing lots of sound FX from the set as well - doors, chairs, items handled by the talent, etc. Low/no/micro-budget filmmakers do not have access to expensive/extensive sound libraries, so expending the extra time and effort to collect these sounds after shooting the scene has been completed can be a help when doing the audio post on a project.

Of course, doing a proper audio post takes a great deal of either time/effort or money. You need to remove all of the "silence" between lines of dialog and replace with room tone and replace the actors actions with Foley. More precisely crafted sound FX can have a huge impact on a project, as does a carefully crafted mix. I spend 1 hour per linear minute of film for each audio post category - dialog editing, Foley, Sound FX, mix and misc. For a 100 minute film that's 500 hours of work, and if I had the budgets I would easily double or triple that. Of course, with a "real" budget I would retain folks better qualified than I to do the Foley and a few other things.

Sound is half of the experience.​
Click to expand...

great great great tips uncle bob, thanks.
 
JPschmidt said:
the 400 Blows was all ADR/Foley/FX as was most of Welles' European films, as a few examples. These were all done for almost no budget as well. It's highly possible for it to work out well, just the time and passion are required.
Click to expand...

Yes, and Welles also dubbed lines for some of his actors, when the actor didn't deliver what he was looking for.... or was unavailable for one reason or another...

It is also rumored that Brando would purposely flub his lines to allow him to redo the lines in ADR.. don't know if that was true or not... just sounds almost 'right' for him...

Just watched "They Call Me Trinity"(1970)... the 'ADR' totally sucked... as did most of the spaghetti westerns... Leone 'got away with it', I think because of the laconic style of dialog. namely not much dialog in the first place...

In one of the "Lord of the Rings" series Behind The Scene installments there's a ssquence of Ian Holmes redoing his lines, and eventually just 'gives up' because he can't match his own lips captured in film, with what he was doing in the studio... I'm sure most people would not detect this at at all... but he wasn't satisfied...

On the other hand, I have been reading recently where the actor/actress has their lines dubbed by someone else, because the filmmaker wanted a 'sound' that the talent couldn't give.

Then there's singing...
 
This might get your juices flowing to ADR:

My friend claims (said he saw it on a Blueray BTS) that James Cameron dubbed all the lines for his early movies (Terminator, Aliens etc.) because that's how he liked to work with his actors. I have since tried to find proof of this online but have found none.
 
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