Should I charge client to remove sound hiss/noise cause by the location sound system?

[ph2003]

Hi guys,

Today had another bad days doing training video shoot for a client.
The Hotel meeting room does provide a PA system with wireless mics, but the hotel don't have a guy that know how to operate the system.
It cause has lots of high band hiss, you can even hear it very cleary in the room. all around 8k, 12k and 16k band hiss continuous across the recording and some comes and go around 10k-12k hiss. (checked with audition)

Talked to the hotel manager, they said they don't hired a sound guy because it cost so much money.... (lol I DONT expect that answer........)
They even blame me, said this was my fault... because I put a lav mic at one of thier speaker to record the sound.
Honestly this is my last backup recording to get good sound if the location cant provide an audio output for me.
DID a lav mic even will cause this problem?
I am not a sound guy, I didn't has any problem with this method so far.

So client is bugging me to fix, guess i only can do it in post.
I don't even know to use a PA system.

Thats the story.....
So now I am back home with 6+ hours of recordings I gotta fix, should I charge the client or not? or I just leave the sound as it?

Whats was your thought? Any of you has any suggestion for me to deal with this kind of situation?

Thanks!

 

[TheDingo]

If the noise is consistent, then it should be relatively easy to remove it from the entire recording. If it's all over the place, then it could be quite a bit of work to clean up. ( I normally don't charge for audio processing if it's a fairly quick task to denoise it )

You might want to provide your client a sample of unprocessed and processed audio, and let them decide if they want to spend additional funds to clean up the audio.

 

[Cary Knoop]

If you have a contract with the client to record both video and sound then I don't see how you could reasonably bill him separately for fixing bad sound.

Did you do a sound check before you started the recording?

Having a good sound is essential especially for a training video.

 

[TheDingo]

If you have a contract with the client to record both video and sound then I don't see how you could reasonably bill him separately for fixing bad sound.

If you have no say in the venue (which is often the case) then I don't entirely agree that you are responsible for the quality of the audio you record.

There's one hotel ballroom in Toronto that I have shot at more than 30 times. It has no ability to provide me with an audio feed and there is no way I can connect an audio recorder to their sound system. I do bring my own wireless mics, but often the presenters refuse to be mic'd so I have to try and get by with the sh*tty audio coming out of the room's sound system. ( a system that sometimes overloads and distorts the presenter's voice ) For client's that aren't prepared to pay for audio processing I will do some basic clean-up of the audio, but they have to live with the end result.

 

[Run&Gun]

It sucks to be at the mercy of a house PA/sound system, because the vast majority are complete S%!$. Sometimes you do not have a choice, like in a lot of press conference situations. Sometimes you do, especially if it's a fixed mic situation. In a lot of sports venues, we will put our own mic(usually a lav taped discretely to the podium mic) up there and by-pass the usually horrible or noisy house system. If you're shooting training presentation type videos, like it sounds, and it's just a single presenter, you need to invest in your own audio/wireless gear and mic them yourself. Putting a mic on top of a house speaker should be a last resort.

If tying in/using the house system was the only option they gave you(as in, they told you NO you can not mic the presenters) I would say you should charge for cleaning it up, but if all you did was lay a mic on a speaker and not actually tying in and taking a feed from the system, some blame has to fall at your feet. After all, you were making a recording of sound coming out of a speaker.

 

[Run&Gun]

If you have no say in the venue (which is often the case) then I don't entirely agree that you are responsible for the quality of the audio you record.

There's one hotel ballroom in Toronto that I have shot at more than 30 times. It has no ability to provide me with an audio feed and there is no way I can connect an audio recorder to their sound system. I do bring my own wireless mics, but often the presenters refuse to be mic'd so I have to try and get by with the sh*tty audio coming out of the room's sound system. ( a system that sometimes overloads and distorts the presenter's voice ) For client's that aren't prepared to pay for audio processing I will do some basic clean-up of the audio, but they have to live with the end result.

If they won't let you mic them, that's on them and I would state up-front that you cannot be held responsible for bad audio if you have no control over it.

 

[paulears]

Hotels with no sound operator, or member of staff who has a clue? Sounds perfectly normal. Hanging a mic in front of a PA system speaker is always a second best approach. However - when you mic up a PA speaker - do you put the mic on the LF unit which will be dull and boomy or the HF unit which will hiss like mad? Your choice. You could have miked at a distance where the hiss was less - but surely running the audio through some eq to make it as good as you can doesn't take very long? You also are charging them for a product with decent sound and picture, so sound IS your responsibility to get right. If you had done a recce or asked questions in advance, you might have decided that you needed to add more kit - if they are going to use the venue equipment, you could have used your own receiver or even attached a small lav mic to the venue mic, or loads of other solutions. This isn't the client's problem - by taking the contract that includes sound, then the problem is that the rooms sound for the guests was fine, but your speaker miking wasn't. Could you have not recorded from their mixer spare outputs if it had them - but maybe a more distant mice on the speakers would have been better so the HF and LF outputs blended?

I see it totally as your problem to make as good as you can. Non-technical clients will remember the room sounds as fine, and won't understand why you captured it weirdly! If it takes more time, that's just how it is?

 

[cpreston]

I will often fix sound in post just so I don't have to fix sound on location. Sometimes it is easier just to leave the HVAC system in peace rather than spend a bunch of time trying to quite it down. Even six hours of footage should be a relatively easy fix if you have an isolated track. It might sound a little muddy, but PA's almost always sound bad anyway so you can just blame it on the PA. Your lav could not have caused the problem with the sound.

 

[hscully]

I used the lav at the podium strategy. It worked really well. If you want an easy solution for noise reduction check out iZotope RX Dialog Noise Reduction. I just use it on auto as a track effect. Works like a champ.

And if you’re getting paid for capturing audio then don’t charge them for noise reduction. It’s just part of doing the best job you can.

 

[morgan_moore]

For the future this sounds like the problem between you and your client is not a technical one but one of communication.

As for getting decent sound in crappy locations - well tht is where a soundie earns thier money.

They would probably start with multiple sources

 

[ph2003]

If the noise is consistent, then it should be relatively easy to remove it from the entire recording. If it's all over the place, then it could be quite a bit of work to clean up. ( I normally don't charge for audio processing if it's a fairly quick task to denoise it )

You might want to provide your client a sample of unprocessed and processed audio, and let them decide if they want to spend additional funds to clean up the audio.

yea sound like an good idea.

Did you do a sound check before you started the recording?
Having a good sound is essential especially for a training video.

yea I did check the sound before started, it was fine. As soon as the event start they plug in the laptop 3.5mm jack into the system to play the music, then it cause the major hiss.

It sucks to be at the mercy of a house PA/sound system, because the vast majority are complete S%!$. Sometimes you do not have a choice, like in a lot of press conference situations. Sometimes you do, especially if it's a fixed mic situation. In a lot of sports venues, we will put our own mic(usually a lav taped discretely to the podium mic) up there and by-pass the usually horrible or noisy house system. If you're shooting training presentation type videos, like it sounds, and it's just a single presenter, you need to invest in your own audio/wireless gear and mic them yourself. Putting a mic on top of a house speaker should be a last resort.

If tying in/using the house system was the only option they gave you(as in, they told you NO you can not mic the presenters) I would say you should charge for cleaning it up, but if all you did was lay a mic on a speaker and not actually tying in and taking a feed from the system, some blame has to fall at your feet. After all, you were making a recording of sound coming out of a speaker.

I did have 3 H1 recorders with 2 lav mic ready. I am a dump ass didn't though about putting another lav to the speaker.... blamed my self

I see it totally as your problem to make as good as you can. Non-technical clients will remember the room sounds as fine, and won't understand why you captured it weirdly! If it takes more time, that's just how it is?

The client did noticed the noise on set, they keep asking me why the sound have wired noise, all I can do is tell them to check with the hotel PA technician.

I will often fix sound in post just so I don't have to fix sound on location. Sometimes it is easier just to leave the HVAC system in peace rather than spend a bunch of time trying to quite it down. Even six hours of footage should be a relatively easy fix if you have an isolated track. It might sound a little muddy, but PA's almost always sound bad anyway so you can just blame it on the PA. Your lav could not have caused the problem with the sound.

May I know whats a HVAC system? should I invest in it?

I used the lav at the podium strategy. It worked really well. If you want an easy solution for noise reduction check out iZotope RX Dialog Noise Reduction. I just use it on auto as a track effect. Works like a champ.
And if you’re getting paid for capturing audio then don’t charge them for noise reduction. It’s just part of doing the best job you can.

It a very low budget gigs, the iZotope plugin cost a ton tho haha

 

[Bruce Watson]

May I know whats a HVAC system?

Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning.

 

[Noiz2]

To charge or not? In this case it could go either way. In future though I would put some conditions in your contract. If you don't know anything about sound then you should not be selling your self as a video and sound service. So really you should be letting folks know that you are not going to be responsible for sound, or take the time and get decent at it.

That is more a Cover Your Ass thing because as a sound person I have showed up to events where the system was spec'd out and then completely ignored and what they had was not even close to what they had promised to have. So even if you know what you are doing and bring a lot of flexibility you sometimes end up just hosed.

BUT if you haven't said anything about what you will and won't provide you are pretty much on the hook for everything.

In this case I don't really see how you can clean up the sound in post. You don't have the tools and say you don't have the knowledge, so...

Also you would be cleaning up six hours of raw as opposed to whatever the edited version gets down to.

I have seen folks drape a lav over a speaker. It always made me cringe because it has got to be one of the worst possible ways to get audio.

First, as pointed out above, you are WAY too close to the speaker so you are only picking up some of the sound (depending on which speaker element you end up in front of). Second a lav is not a full spectrim microphone. So you are going to get a thing sound generally because they are designed to counteract the extra bass you get by mounting them on a body. Plus you have to pushing the edge of their SPL limit in a lot of cases.

An SM58 on a mic stand a foot away would be a MUCH better choice. IF they then ***** about the "look" you can get them to sign off on "crappier" audio of the draped lav, if that is what you have to do.

As a future note, laptops and tablets are noise magnets in general and especially if they are not running off batteries. Apple seems to especially bad this way, but maybe I just haven't dealt with enough Windows boxes?

The second note to remember is that a sound check with out everything connected and turned on is not a sound check. Or rather it's a check of only what is connected so the odds of issues later goes up by the amount of stuff not tested. This of course does not mean you will be able to get people to cooperate and allow you a real sound check, but you need to keep in mind that in those cases you did not get a sound check and need to ready for unpleasant surprises.

 

[Josh Bass]

I don’t know that I can contribute much more than what others have already said, but the way I view the answer to your initial question/post boils down to “is this problem MY fault?” If so, it’s on me to fix it without charging them extra. Determining whose fault it is will have to do with everything everyone else has said about what discussions took place before the gig, what you agreed to do/provide and what measures were taken by both parties to prevent issues on the job site.

As for how to prevent it from happening again, most of us have learned over time not to trust PA system feeds from anyone unless it’s a professional sound guy YOU hired to work with you. Even pro sound guys from hotel staff, AV companies etc., even those with the best of intentions and who are totally willing to help you out and work with you (which is kind of a nuisance to them since it’s probably not part of their job description) can still accidentally screw you over because they don’t know what level of signal to send to your camera, or something’s routed incorrectly, whatever. The point is, unless you (or your client) specifically hired them to work with you, you’re probably and afterthought and a low priority and you just can’t count on what they’re sending out to be any good.

I would buy a couple of attenuator pads (small metal connectors that reduce the level of an audio signal) in various strengths to use if next time they do send you a signal that is too “hot”. Those should be pretty cheap.

Some options for the future:


I would rent or buy my own wireless microphone or 2 to put on the presenters and bypass the venue’s audio completely whenever possible.

Maybe a separate audio recorder (Tascam etc.) you could leave sitting on a lectern. Not great but better than nothing.

Set up your own shotgun mic on a stand near the lectern area pointing at where the presenters will be. Again, not great but better than nothing.

Hire a pro sound guy to work with you and deal with all of this. Will cost quite a bit but be well worth it.

And of course lastly, pointing a mic at the speaker from a little distance away as a last resort.

Always discuss this stuff with client well beforehand, as audio on these things is almost more important than the video.

I know how difficult these situations can be, and if the gig is too low budget and they won’t let you do any of the things I mention above then you really can’t be held responsible for bad sound...some situations are simply impossible if you’re not given enough money/equipment/crew people/leeway/time to deal with everything. If it were me I simply wouldn’t take another gig like that if it seemed like there was no way it was going to go well. Let some other sucker have a bad day.

 

[Run&Gun]

I see it totally as your problem to make as good as you can. Non-technical clients will remember the room sounds as fine, and won't understand why you captured it weirdly! If it takes more time, that's just how it is?

The client did noticed the noise on set, they keep asking me why the sound have wired noise, all I can do is tell them to check with the hotel PA technician.

Just for the record, I did not say this, paulears did. Something happened when you were quoting the comments.

 

[Run&Gun]

One of the biggest problems with PA system/house sound is, they are generally set-up to just provide sound for the people in the room via speakers and as long as the sound is "good" coming out of the speakers, that's all they care about. The levels and gain staging are usually jacked up six-ways-from-Sunday and that's why the levels on the mult-box are usually fried, but they don't care, as long as the speakers/room sound "good" to the ear.

 

[ph2003]

To charge or not? In this case it could go either way. In future though I would put some conditions in your contract. If you don't know anything about sound then you should not be selling your self as a video and sound service. So really you should be letting folks know that you are not going to be responsible for sound, or take the time and get decent at it.
That is more a Cover Your Ass thing because as a sound person I have showed up to events where the system was spec'd out and then completely ignored and what they had was not even close to what they had promised to have. So even if you know what you are doing and bring a lot of flexibility you sometimes end up just hosed.

Sorry I should have stated this part, before they hire me to do the gigs, I do let the clients know the sound will be record as it with the venue PA system. (As I do not provide pro sound setup)

As for how to prevent it from happening again, most of us have learned over time not to trust PA system feeds from anyone unless it’s a professional sound guy YOU hired to work with you. Even pro sound guys from hotel staff, AV companies etc., even those with the best of intentions and who are totally willing to help you out and work with you (which is kind of a nuisance to them since it’s probably not part of their job description) can still accidentally screw you over because they don’t know what level of signal to send to your camera, or something’s routed incorrectly, whatever. The point is, unless you (or your client) specifically hired them to work with you, you’re probably and afterthought and a low priority and you just can’t count on what they’re sending out to be any good.

I would buy a couple of attenuator pads (small metal connectors that reduce the level of an audio signal) in various strengths to use if next time they do send you a signal that is too “hot”. Those should be pretty cheap.

Yes I have been screw by some sound guy, the left my channel mixed up with the music + speeches.
I do have -20 attenuator pad in my kit tho.

Just for the record, I did not say this, paulears did. Something happened when you were quoting the comments.

Sorry there must be some error quoting too much comment

 

[Josh Bass]

In that case it might be one of those things where they HEARD you but didn’t LISTEN (absorb, process). Written contracts can help with things like that so everything is concrete and can be referred to.

 

[Jim Feeley]

Sorry I should have stated this part, before they hire me to do the gigs, I do let the clients know the sound will be record as it with the venue PA system. (As I do not provide pro sound setup)

The client may not understand how much and how often this can result in audio problems.

For the future, maybe consider adding (and charging for) the ability to record solid audio.

For now, I'd say make a reasonable effort to address the biggest audio issues without extra charge. The built-in noise reduction tools in Premiere Pro CC and FCPX are OK these days; I'd guess it's the same for several other NLEs. And some EQ may let you fairly quickly notch out some noises. Or invest in iZotope RX. Even the lowest-cost version (which often goes on sale) is pretty helpful: https://www.izotope.com/en/products/repair-and-edit/rx.html

But even without iZotope, it seems like you could make things sound better with not too much of a time investment.


But it all depends on if you want to work with that particular client again, I guess.

 

[Josh Bass]

That is another thing (to the OP)— Sometimes you have to explain in very simple language why certain more technical things can be a problem ("If we use only available light it might be a problem because blah blah blah”), and like the guy above me said, why/how problems can arise from using only venue PA systems for sound. Things like that. Often our clients don’t have the faintest clue about this stuff that is very technical but makes a huge difference in the final product you’re delivering. Sometimes we have to educate them a little. Sometimes they will even sign off on things or tell you “oh it’ll be fine” and if/when it isn’t you STILL get blamed. I still struggle with this myself because I am not very authoritative. So if you protest about something and are still overruled, and the result turns out poorly, and you are still blamed even though you told them it would turn out poorly, what are you to do? More than likely they will not be apologetic about making bad decsions and may not want to work with you again. So again I say one of the best things is to try to find out about these conflicts or issues beforehand during initial discussions and simply be willing to refuse the job if you don’t think there’s any way it will turn out well.