Shotguns inside

D

dre83

Veteran
Some say "NO SHOTGUNS INSIDE !!!!!!", but other people I know do use shotguns inside (for feature movies)... Even one of them was a teacher of me... (he does sound for TV and film, so I think he knows where he talks about) and says that it's more a "personal choise" rather then "a rule/law" that HAS to be followed.

I think it also has to do with knowing how to boom... being able to follow dialogues, being on time on the person that speaks, the distance....

Which is I think is the main raison people say: "it sounds to roomy". If "unexperienced" boomoperators would boom with a cardiod mic it would sound also "roomy".

Practicaly a cardio mic is mostly shorter, so more easy to use inside, and go closer to the talent. It's also more easy to pass doorframes etc...

And soundly I know that a cardio / hypercardio will capture more the "room", where a shotgun will try to "avoid" sidesounds.

But it's more that I think it's a personal choise if one is using a shotgun inside or a hypercardio.

If I was doing a project and I had the choise between: lights that doesn't buzz and a shotgun for all scenes (inside and outside) or light that buzzes etc but having different mics...
I think I would go for the first...

And yes I know I should say: I WANT different mics AND unbuzzing-light... But... I don't live in Hollywood :-p
 
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I think the translation is off on your post. I think you mean "no shotguns" inside. Very different from "no gunshots".
 
No I meant "gunshots" :-p

But before I get CIA, FBI, KBG, ABC, XYZ, KLM, OPQ and STU over here I just adapted it...
 
I acually just want to "push" some thoughts here about "using shotguns inside" and "does one has to follow rules or not ?"
and "can one be shot down because he used a shotgun inside or not ?"
 
Forget the rules and use your ears. Sometimes you would use the same mic, which happens to be the favorite one as well. both outside and inside as the starting point. You have a playbook that you follow, but how it is played and changes on the field happens due to many factors such as the location, what kind of room or environment, actors are soft or loud-spoken, wide or CU shots, need to double or triple boom the scene, etc.

3 weeks ago I was alternating between the MKH70 and the MK41 for our EXT scenes. When the location was super quiet with no reflections except for the pavement floor, I grabbed the MKH70 shooting a ultra-wide scene. Out in front of the door with an echo-y background and reflections I grabbed the MK41 even though our headframe was 4-6 feet out in the background, which still makes it a wide shot. Sounded better than all the shotguns I tried for those takes.
 
Yes, but some people (in general, like as in "the world population") are getting hart attacks when someone has used a shotgun inside...
 
Yes, that happens a lot. I also use shotguns inside only when it's the right situation. I get funny faces, but the director is listening through their headsets and hears that it actually sounds better. Then they don't care what you use because they know the answer already.
 
it depends on how close you can come, shadows.... big/small room, bathroom, toilet, empty room, room full of curtains... Being able to go under
doorframes, low sealing, high sealing...

But as I said I think it also has to do with the fact that in 99% of the "no budget" films, the "boomguy" is just "a friend"....Who is not trained in proper booming
and hold it way to high or doesn't follow the talent when moving.

And yes I like to eat chocolate and french fries and I don't drink beer. Does anyone drinks Duvel, Hoegaerden, Westmalle, Rodenbach here ?
 
Greg Smith said:
I was relieved to read the post and realize he wasn't talking about using live ammunition on the set.

- Greg
Click to expand...
Yeah me too. I was about to do some butt chewin'.

But as to the cardioid vs. shotgun. True, it does come down to "to each their own". But where your mic choice really counts, is not on set. It's in the edit room.

On set, there can be a false sense of security when it comes to what you are recording vs. hearing, and that comes from your headphones, and how well they isolate you from the ambient, live sound. When what you hear through the headphones and what is in the open air is separated by only 20 ms or less, you wont hear what you actually recorded properly. So, what do you do? That is where experience in working with different polar patterned mics comes in and knowing what the end result is.

Personally, as long as they allow me to, or I don't have a specific reason to change......I love a good cardioid patterned mic with a nice output level. The off axis rejection is a tool I use regularly, and with some success.
 
True about the "headphones can confuse"... I often listen to the "room" without headphones to know how it sounds "naturally".

Soon I'll be doing a shoot and I'll see if I can record some stuff twice (cardio or hypercardio and shotgun inside). But I have to check if there's time for that.

Well anyway it's a "friend helping" thing... So they just have to weather they like it or not :-p
 
Been there done that. LOL. One of the very first things I do is an "impulse check" of a room. Stand in the center of where talent is going to be and give a hard clap. see what it sounds like, so I know what to expect, and if I need to treat the room temporarily.
 
dre83 said:
Yes, but some people (in general, like as in "the world population") are getting hart attacks when someone has used a shotgun inside...
Click to expand...

I think that usually only happens with a full load, you should be using 1/4 loads or less indoors. ;~)
 
Doc Bernard said:
Wait.....I like to be fully loaded before I go on set. 1/4 loaded only gives me a slight buzz.
Click to expand...

Good point, shotgun 1/4 load - mixer full load...

Though the problem with that is that if your fully loaded you can have a tendency to unload at idiots. And since the idiots may well be signing your checks that can cause delays in things like mortgage payments.

Loading can be a complicated issue.


This probably doesn't translate well ;~) There are probably a bunch of folks thinking WTF and wondering how loaded we are at the moment...
 
Oh, you guys are so funny...

Dre - The mic you choose is far less important than your technique. A great boom-op has a very high skill set. S/he can keep the mic properly and accurately pointed at the talent, even when changing from one actor to another line by line, while not making any noise, keeping the mic out of the shot, not creating shadows, and not tripping over things on the floor or bumping into lights stands, reflectors, and everything else that can be found on an active set.

I'm sure that there are lots of folks that could give you chapter and verse on the audio physics of shotguns vs. hypercardioids, but the simple answer is the way a cardioid or hypercardioid captures sound only mitigates the affects of recording in a reflective environment, it does not solve the problem. That's why a hyper is recommended, because at most indie shoots some "unlucky" PA on his second shoot is tasked with the job of booming; the hyper will sound marginally better, although how they would know is beyond me because most never monitor their audio on-set, and those few who do have no idea of what to listen for.

BTW, the way a microphone "hears" completely exaggerates the reflective properties of any space as it records the sounds coming from one specific point; your ears hear in a stereo "omni" pattern, so to say (left, right, back, front, up, down), and your brain has an automatic editing function that eliminates things you don't want to hear. Learning to hear things as they actually are instead of the way our brain presents them is one of the skills the better production sound folks have mastered.

In a 10' X 10' empty room with a tile floor a great experienced boom-op with a $250 shotgun will get 10,000% better results than a newb with a $2,000 hyper. It's the skill set, not the equipment.
 
Yes I know. I didn't post this as a "question" but more as a "getting rid of the fact that shotguns inside are forbidden".

Phrases like: "you're better with a good boomoperator and a FisherPrice mic, rather then "a friend" with a 5000000000 € mic"
and "it sounds roomy because it's just not boomed well, or the room just sounds reverbly" I posted in some other posts here and there.
 
Dre, nobody has ever said shotguns indoors are forbidden.

The issue is the resulting audio you get with a shotgun. You could use any mic in anyplace and capture audio, if that is your goal or the limitations you have. But it is an accepted practice of cardioid or hyper on indoors, shottie's out. Because of the end result, and from the experiences of those that have gone before you or I.

The room and subject matter dictates what mic choice would be best.

You could use a shotgun mic in a million dollar studio with tens of thousands invested in the treatment of that room, and it still won't give you that clarity and presence of audio that a cardioid would, That is because a shotgun, though it allows phase cancellations through tube interference, it is not a black/white or on/off situation. You are dealing with sound which in the real world is analog. Unwanted frequencies and impulses will get through and be captured, even if they are off axis.

On the camera side, there is a lot of complaining about "pixel-peepers", which I disagree with. Because those individuals usually understand the science and are able to discuss it and in turn educate others.

Well, in audio, we have "waveform peepers". And I count myself one of them and I dare say, most of the working sound engineers here are the same. On a basic level, yes, whatever mic choice you use, you will get audio. But you may have to work harder or just have to accept that it may not be the best you could have captured had you not made the choice you did.

Dre, you mention in your sig that you are a sound recordists, and I applaud that. But please know that audio does have some already-known guidelines, and for high quality audio, certain mic choices do fall within those parameters. There are a lot of people new to the industry that read these forums because they have no clue about audio. And we have a responsibility to share our knowledge and experience with them.

That being said, there are a couple of applications where I would see a shotgun being used indoors for the best choice. But they are few and far between. And eventually, every location audio person, once they have heard the end results, comes to that conclusion. It comes down to having your "ears" being experienced enough to hear and understand the difference. Couple that experience and those ears with the right equipment........you have the equation for great set audio that your editor will kiss you for.

I can't tell you how many times I have gotten jobs through the editor of projects I have flown sound for. To me, those are the best referrals and speak the highest to my work product.
 
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Yes of course and I 'also advice people to use a hyper or cardio inside. But I'm more a fan of saying: "try a hypercardio and try to hear the difference" so that they can hear for themself what the difference is.
Instead of saying: "use a hypercardio inside, because it has been done for almost 5000 years and everyone does it".

Ow yes and I have that sort of "condition" where I write a phrase, but think about another phrase and then write words in the wrong direction etc. So that's why I typed "gunshots". Probably I was thinking about gunshots....
 
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