Shotgun vs lavalier for a home interview with possible noise

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Ken1212

Well-known member
I will be working on an interview in a home with possible noise to plan for. Street car noise and possible neighbour's dog barking. Lucky the street is small and car noise is not extreme or frequent none the less it's there. The room is on the second floor facing the street. The setup will be as follows, street behind talent/guest and to both sides of the home neighbors dog. If we get lucky and no barking or motorcycle zipping through would be awesome, but need to be prepared. The shoot will be done with a three camera setup, center camera for two shot, two side cameras one for talent and one for guest. By the way we can not change location. I have three options for setup as follows:

1. Shotgun mic with a 416
2. Sony lavs 88b
3. Sony lavs 66b

I love the sony 88b it has great sound to it and a small form factor but concerned because it's omnidirectional. What do you think is the best option for this setup. I also have a Zoom F8 that I can use to feed lavs and shotgun at the same time and record on separate channels for backup. What do you guys think?
 
I've not used the Sony's, but I would not hesitate to use the lavs over the shotgun even though they are omni. Some lav's don't perform well in that situation, but I expect you will get superior results with the lav. To get an idea of how an omni compares to a shotgun, listen to this example with headphones. Go to 9:50 in this video to hear the difference between the Sennheiser 415 shotgun (not a typo) and a Tram TR-50 lav (also omni). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mniyClIcB7s&t=775s. While there is no background noise, the is a lot of reverb as this was shot in a large hard room. The objective was to see how these mics perform in a difficult environment.

I'm always in favor of lavs over a boom if I can eliminate clutter on the set. With three cameras in a home, you already have a challenge with lights and tripods. So that's another reason I'd not want to use the boom if not necessary.

Others will tell you that a shotgun is a no-no indoors and tell you to use a cardioid or hyper-cardioid.

Of course, the best thing to do is run a test beforehand to see what results you get or if that's not possible, simulate the environment and test it.
 
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Ken1212 said:
I love the sony 88b it has great sound to it and a small form factor but concerned because it's omnidirectional. What do you think is the best option for this setup. I also have a Zoom F8 that I can use to feed lavs and shotgun at the same time and record on separate channels for backup. What do you guys think?
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You can record them both, sure. But you'll use the lav. A shotgun in an enclosed space with rapid reflections is usually not a pretty thing to listen to. The rapid reflections play havoc with the signal often resulting in bizarre comb filtering artifacts. I doubt I'd even bother unless your subject is seated in the middle of the room (off the walls, mouth half way between floor and ceiling, all to maximize the time of arrival for the first reflections).

BTW, all lavs should be omnis. Directional lavs are a pointless PITA, as just about anyone who's tried one can tell you. If an omni lav still gives you too much noise, rather than a directional lav, go with a directional earset mic -- put a cardioid mic right at the corner of talent's mouth. This works because it's an earset -- as the talent's head moves, the mic stays put in relation to the only thing that matters -- talent's mouth. So you don't get talent wandering in and out of pattern, and you don't have variable proximity effect. You want the corner of the mouth and not out in front (plosives). Earsets are what most professional stage shows and musicals use. It's about as big a signal to noise ratio as you can get.
 
If you have access to the location, I would do a quick test to see which one you prefer. ( and maybe swap the shotgun out for a hypercardioid to avoid room reflections )
 
I usually record both (on separate tracks of course) but rarely use a interference tube (shotgun) mic on the boom. If there is extraneous noise, the lav will likely have less of it. There are risks though to using two mics, video editors often combine them to mono or just leave them L/R.. both of which can be disastrous.
 
Thanks guys for the input. Some more helpful information, the room is about 320 SF, the ceiling is 9 feet in height. The talent and guest will be sitting in the center of the room. It's also important to mention that this is a game room on the second floor that is completely open on one side to a two story large living room. The talent and guest are facing the open space but at a 45 degree angle. I will have a backdrop in the back and the sides which helps some with audio, the room is also carpeted. I did a test with a sennheiser ME66/66 in the past in the same room and it turned out great. I recently acquired a sennheiser 416 but have not tested it in that room yet. Based on my tests with both the ME66 shotgun and sony ecm-88b both work great in that setup/ environment and sound was excellent.

On the other hand both dog barking and car noise is completely unpredictable which means I could be recording for an hour without a single hiss, or suddenly a car zips by (this is a neighbourhood street and speed limit should be no more than 35mph), same thing with the dog, he could be very quite but if he senses movement in the street he can start barking. Since the shotgun rejects the most from the sides and back (that's where the dog is) I thought it would give me the most rejection. Concerning the shotgun mic, it would be mounted on a c stand, I am not sure though if a single mic is sufficient for two people four feet apart if it's mounted in the center between both (my test was with a single person). Or if I would need to use two shotguns !!! Right now my plan is to use the sony lavs and a single shotgun all connected to a Zoom F8. Then take a feed of only the lavs to my master camera and retain the shotgun track on the Zoom f8 for backup. Is this a good plan?
 
For about $20/hr you can get a dog walker.

A shotgun on a c-stand, recording people 4 ft apart, isn't an ideal application. Not so bad if both people are facing the mic.

I'd use lavs and hang furniture pads on stands. The lavs aren't as hot as the shotgun and are much closer to the speakers so will pick up less of the extraneous noise.

The cars are a crap shoot, but with the lavs, it might not be such a big deal. Be prepared to ask questions a second time and edit out the noise.
 
Shotgun is the wrong tool for this situation, a hypercardioid/cardioid or two would be superior. Always record both lav and boom in a situation like this, gives you choices in editing. Make sure your files are labeled as to what is what for audio and check with the editor to make sure they understand which audio is on which track, phase cancellation is not a wonderful thing.
 
Remember technique matters even more than everything else.

If you put your boom mic off axis and 5 feet away, then it of course will be no good.

(oh and for two people, you either need a person dedicated to swinging the boom back and forth, or use two boom mics, or have a quiet room with them sitting very close together with a mic that has a wider pick up pattern than a shotgun)
 
Since it is two people, it would be helpful to get a boom operator (do we call them boomie like soundie :cheesy: ?). I do some corporate and doc shoots in some incredibly noisy environments. You will find most of the Indian cities noisy and there is hardly any sound proofing. Lavs help however depending on location a boom is at times better in isolating some of the sound due to directional nature of the boom. Best is to try both ie two lavs to two people and then one boom operator booming to both, if you don't have two separate dedicated boom mics in stands and recorder for that many number of inputs.

In this video, I was recording the voice later using a lav with a tree behind me in my terrace. The lav picked up traffic noise from a distance. I did retakes but one car sound escaped my notice and it was pointed out later. I didn't use a boom here but it would have been better in this case. https://youtu.be/iwi5np4xO3Q
 
In this situation, I would use two hypercardioid mics. I would probably also lav the speakers, but only because producers often think lavs are required. In most interviews with normal head room, you should be able to get microphone just as close to the mouth as the lav. In that case, the hyper will sound better and have better off axis rejection. The only time a lav has better noise cancellation is if the sound is coming from directly behind the person or if the noise is directly overhead of the person on a microphone with substantial rear lobe. If the room is really reflective, than it is a toss up. In any case, the 416 probably isn't a good option under any situation in an enclosed room.

I did this test just to look at my options for interviews. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f8sZXDMfJA&t=1s
 
This is just an aside in a way, but yesterday I used a new, inexpensive product made by Saramonic for a 2 person on camera all day thing without a sound person. I used their UHF combo with 2 transmitters and one receiver monitoring my own sound. The reason for posting here is the cheap lavs that come with this set have some unreal rejection of extraneous sound. We were in a building with metal roof that was heating up and crackling for a long time in the AM. I couldn't hear the cracking roof through the lavs. Also, the lavs from the talent which were only a few feet apart rejected the other person amazingly well (the literature says they are omnis too). So, when one talent was making sounds of agreement like so many non-pros do, it will be very much in the background if recorded at all. So, I've always wondered if cheaper mics solve some problems and in this case they did! Just a crazy, but real-life observation. All that said, both talent sound perfectly acceptable.
 
I'm disappointed with my Saramonic wireless as it broke so quickly, money wasted


Sony UWP-D11 is a much better buy
 
IronFilm said:
I'm disappointed with my Saramonic wireless as it broke so quickly, money wasted
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As I recall, Saramonic is a daughter company of B&H that produces low budget audio products. Likely re-branded generic china made, but I don't know this fo' sure.
For a low budget wireless, I'd use the usual suspect Sony or Sennheiser systems. (w/ upgraded mic of course).
 
Rick R said:
As I recall, Saramonic is a daughter company of B&H that produces low budget audio products.
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I think you're thinking of another company, Saramonic is their own selves, based in China.

B&H does however have their own store brands (LOTS! Senal · Polsen · Auray · Arco · Ruggard · Pearstone · Kopul · Impact · Watson · etc are just a few of them), just Saramonic isn't one of them.
 
"I think you're thinking of another company, Saramonic is their own selves, based in China."
- I guess I was thinking "Senal".. Sorry for any confusion.
 
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