Shotgun: Cardioid or Omni?

Mikungfu

Mikungfu

Active member
I am looking for a microphone for a Canon XF305. To start with, I don't even know what kind of pick up the built in micro has... I know it is stereo and not much more.

I want a Shotgun Stereo Micro with phantom power and XLR connection, to connect to the camcorder XLR Audio input. I'm not sure whether to choose omni or cardioid.

I was looking at the Sennheiser ME 62/K6 or the ME 64/K6 combos.

I hear that cardioid is good because it isolates side noise and focus on the axis subject. But I also hear it's more sensitive to winds and noises when the camera moves. I even heard that if the actor looks sideways while talking, it becomes too noticeable and the frequency changes.

I also hear that the Omni catches all equally. this is good in a way to avoid the above problems but I also hear that it doesn't capture sound well when not too close to the subject... I and I sure don't want my breathing to be heard louder than the filmed subject.

What I need now is a multi-purpose Microphone that captures sound in front a little better than sideways and better than backwards. so I guess it would be a mid thing between both, or a cardioid not too directional.

Can anyone advise me on which would be a good microphone for this under $300 or $500?

Also, can anyone confirm me what kind of pick up does the Canon XL-H1 (or other cameras like the EX-1 or EX-3) usually has?

Thanks.
 
There is so much to answer here. I strongly suggest you read all the stickies at the top of this forum.

1. There is no one mic to do everything.
2. Anything on the camera will fall far short of "good" audio.

There are a few good mics in your price range but each one serves a different need.
 
I understand that. I have been reading the stickies, including the shootout one... But I still don't get any info on a Cardioid not too directional or, an omni which can capture far enough...

Also, I'd like to know what kind of pick up the built in Mic of cameras like XL-H1 have... I used it and it served the purpose well but, I'm not sure whether those are cardioid or omni.
 
I do not know what mics are on the SL-H1 but I would say they are cheap "shotguns" but display a performance more in line with a cardioid. Which means camera zoom sounds, tape transport sounds, camera handling, and just about anything else is going to be picked up. Read below regarding the inverse square law and you'll see why camera mounted mics are not a good choice.

Location sound guys "typically" use omni lav and directional boom mics. A true cardioid microphone pattern is usually too wide a pattern for most film work unless you have good control over the ambient sounds in the room you're shooting. Cardioids outdoors will pick-up anything and everything within an approximately 180 degree pattern in front of the mic. In most interior shoots, sound guys select either a hyper cardioid (or super cardioid). The pattern is a bit narrower than a cardioid to help keep out sounds you don't want, but still provides a more natural sounding voice than if using a true short or long shotgun indoors.

Outdoors, the shotgun is king. Depending on the talent of the boom op, typically the tighter the pattern the better.

All of the relies on having the mic on a boom in order to get it close to the talent.

Here is a very important issue and may help in your microphone selection:

Sound travels, and microphones pick-up according to the inverse square law. What this means is that take a microphone and place it near a sound source. Now, now move the twice as far away. The mic will not pick up half the volume of the source, but 1/4th the volume of the source. Half the distance between the mic and source, and the volume picked up is not twice as loud, but 4 times as loud. This is why it is so very important to get the mic as close to the talent as possible. This is why omni lavs work. While the omni is a very wide (360ish) pattern, it is so close to the actors mouth it picks up the voice several magnitudes louder than surrounding sounds while still keeping the voice sounding natural.

Notice I use the term typically, because there are instances where the choices will be different.

Hope this helps you in your quest.
 
Almost any cheap microphone on a boom 1-2' away from your actors will sound better than ANY microphone you leave on the camera, regardless of price or polar pattern...

No one uses on-camera microphones professionally (except maybe as a guide track to match audio recorded separately). If that's truly your only options though, here's the suggestions from the stickies...

Kit #2: I don't care what you say, I'm going on camera Kit (indoors)
Who It's For: People who refuse to listen to reason and are determined to mount their mic on camera. WARNING: Results will vary with this kit.
Includes: Oktava MK012 w/ Hyper Cardiod Cap ($180), High wind screen ($50), Sambra Shockmount ($50). Total Cost: $280

Kit #4: I don't care what you say, I'm going on camera and I want a shotgun mic damnit Kit (indoors)
Who It's For: People who refuse to listen to reason and are determined to mount their mic on camera and want a shotgun mic. WARNING: Results will vary with this kit.
Includes: Rode NTG 1 ($250), Rycote Softie ($100), Gitzo Shockmount ($50). Total Cost: $400
 
Mikungfu said:
I am looking for a microphone for a Canon XF305. To start with, I don't even know what kind of pick up the built in micro has... I know it is stereo and not much more.

I want a Shotgun Stereo Micro with phantom power and XLR connection, to connect to the camcorder XLR Audio input. I'm not sure whether to choose omni or cardioid.

I was looking at the Sennheiser ME 62/K6 or the ME 64/K6 combos.

I hear that cardioid is good because it isolates side noise and focus on the axis subject. But I also hear it's more sensitive to winds and noises when the camera moves. I even heard that if the actor looks sideways while talking, it becomes too noticeable and the frequency changes.

I also hear that the Omni catches all equally. this is good in a way to avoid the above problems but I also hear that it doesn't capture sound well when not too close to the subject... I and I sure don't want my breathing to be heard louder than the filmed subject.

What I need now is a multi-purpose Microphone that captures sound in front a little better than sideways and better than backwards. so I guess it would be a mid thing between both, or a cardioid not too directional.

Can anyone advise me on which would be a good microphone for this under $300 or $500?

Also, can anyone confirm me what kind of pick up does the Canon XL-H1 (or other cameras like the EX-1 or EX-3) usually has?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

First of all there is no such thing as an "omni shotgun" or a "cardioid shotgun." Omin, cardioid, hypercardioid, and shotgun (super-cardioid) all describe the varying degrees of directionality a mic can exhibit, in ascending order from none to a lot. They range from not at all directional omni (eqally sensitive in all directions) to most directional with the super-cardioid shotgun (sensitive along a narrow cone coming out along its axis, not very senstive on the side or rear). Cardioid and hypercardioid lie in between, with cardioid closer to omni (sensitive in a 180 degree hemisphere front and sides and not much behind) and the hypercardioid closer to the shotgun (sensitive around a cone of about 30 degrees in front, little on the side, and a bit more in the back).

Not to repeat what others have said, but even if you spend multiple thousands of dollars to get one of the top-shelf shotguns from Neumann, Schoeps, etc, you still will need to get it to within about 24 inches of your actor's mouth and aimed directly at it, keeping it aimed as he moves, to get the clear, crisp sound you hear on broadcast. That's just the nature of sound. Those shotgun mics you see on all the professional broadcast and ENG cameras ARE NOT used for capturing dialog, they're there mainly to capture general ambient sound in a location.
 
Mikungfu said:
Also, can anyone confirm me what kind of pick up does the Canon XL-H1 (or other cameras like the EX-1 or EX-3) usually has?
Click to expand...

If you're talking about the mics that are built into the camera's handle, that's a stereo pair of either cardioids or omnis. Either way, they pick up way too much of what's going on in/on/around/behind the camera.
 
Thank you all for the thorough explanation! The short version of the conclusion you helped me reach is that I need firstly a cardioid and then an Omni and lastly a supercardioid shotgun. Later I'll get other, like wireless and stuff. All this will be connecting either to an old Tascam DA-98HR or to an Alesis HD24 (indoors) or a Tascam DR-680 (outdoors).

@GPForet: Thank you for you descriptive explanation and examples and for the inverse square law description.

@Gohanto: Thanks for the Kits Examples. You are right... For camera Mic, the one tha comes bundled is more than enough for weddings and stuff. Other Mics should never be used on camera. I see that more than ever.

@Steve House: Thank you for further clarifying what each polar pattern stands for exactly. That was most helpful!

@C2V: I never realized the built in Mis were a pair. More than ever I realize how basic and semi-useless those are in most situations where pro quality audio is required. Why going through the pain of crippled and difficult post production solutions, when you can get it right the first time?

I really don't know all that much about audio and sound capture. I merely know a bit of post, with Nuendo. Today I learned a lot more.
 
A lot has been already said.

But - there is no such thing as a stereo shotgun.

As a rule of thumb to remember:-
If you have an omni mic. at 1 metre distance...
A cardioid ill pick up the same sond at 1.7 metres
A super-cardioid will do the same at 1.9 metres
A short gun mic will do the same at 2.2 metres.

The exception is the new Schoeps Super CMIT which also has a reverse-facing cardioid capsule that makes this much more effective - but It costs £2,640 +VAT (special offer until the end of the year) and you will still need the Rycote windshield and digital adaptor.

Actually, your original suggestion of the K6 series was a good one as you can swap capsules on a single body.
 
Mikungfu said:
...
@Gohanto: Thanks for the Kits Examples. You are right... For camera Mic, the one tha comes bundled is more than enough for weddings and stuff. Other Mics should never be used on camera. I see that more than ever.

....
Click to expand...

Actually the mics that come on the camera are barely adequate for your kids birthday party or filming the family around the Thanksgiving turkey. Weddings, etc - where you're actually charging someone for shooting the video - requires a more professional quality result than the internal camera mics will ever be able to provide.
 
Mikungfu said:
@C2V: I never realized the built in Mis were a pair. More than ever I realize how basic and semi-useless those are in most situations where pro quality audio is required. Why going through the pain of crippled and difficult post production solutions, when you can get it right the first time?

I really don't know all that much about audio and sound capture. I merely know a bit of post, with Nuendo. Today I learned a lot more.
Click to expand...

Knowing what you don't know is a great start, seriously. It keeps you from getting into too much trouble. But before you go spend money on equipment that may not be right for you (why on earth you have an omni on your list, I don't know), you might be better off investing in the "Sound for Film and Television DVD" that's available through DVXUser. It's a great crash course, and it will help you better understand not only how to select a mic, but how to use it for the better.

Proper mic selection is important, but just as important, if not more, is knowing how to use that mic to get the best result. Cover both selection and technique, and that will help you get it right the first time.

Mikungfu said:
Thank you all for the thorough explanation! The short version of the conclusion you helped me reach is that I need firstly a cardioid and then an Omni and lastly a supercardioid shotgun. Later I'll get other, like wireless and stuff.
Click to expand...

Again, "supercardioid" and "shotgun" are not the same. Cardioid is probably too wide a response for you, so hypercardioid is most likely a better choice. Omnis are all but useless for anything other than a lavaliere, which is where they're the rule for on-camera dialog.

The basic, two-mic starter kit for audio contains a short shotgun and a hypercardioid.
 
C2V said:
...
Again, "supercardioid" and "shotgun" are not the same. ...
Click to expand...

Strictly speaking true, as "shotgun" is a physical design while "supercardioid" is a polar pattern. But a lot of manufacturers (Sennheiser, Schoeps, Neumann, etc) use the term "super-cardioid/lobar" to describe their shotgun's patterns.
 
John Willett said:
But - there is no such thing as a stereo shotgun.
Click to expand...

Well, several respected companies like Sanken, Pearl and Neumann make stereo shotguns, or at least label them as "stereo shotgun". Narrow pickup shotgun in the middle and figure-8 in one body forming a MS stereo microphone. Middle mic can naturally be used alone as a mono shotgun, and when matrixed with the fig-8 you get narrowesh pattern stereo pickup. Prices starting from around $1500 to about $5000.

If the stereo in these is "shotgun" is debatable of course, as the pattern is naturally wider than the shotgun mic pickup alone (fig-8 is facing sideways), but it is narrower than a cardioid/fig-8 normal MS, as the narrower pickup ot the M mic gives more weight to the center. It is as close to a "stereo shotgun" it can be, without actually taping two shotguns together at 60 degree angle, or making a Y-form unibody mic from two shotguns...
 
Just to help distinguish the polar patterns visually, I planned these spinning 360 degree examples out and recorded them. We shot these in our studio at the DVeStore with the Panasonic HPX500. Each mic was fed into a Sound Devices 302 mixer. The microphones utilized in these example are the newer Sennheiser 8000 series mics, with the shotgun being the MKH416.

Omni


Cardioid


Supercardioid


Shotgun
 
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