Short films are for kids?

Saharanturtle

Saharanturtle

Active member
I thought this question deserved its own thread apart from the "$10k amazing feature" thread.

I said in that thread that I think it would be a better idea to make a short film with that $10k instead of a feature because the quality and production value will be much much higher and having an amazing short film will get you much MUCH more exposure than an "okay" feature will

Someone else said:

"Short films, to me, are something you do in school to develop your reel or something you do for bits and giggles once you're a successful filmmaker"



Is that true?






edit



here's the whole quote so it doesn't look as if I'm misquoting anyone

If I was spending 10K on a short, it better be either A) a pilot for a television show, B) a short version of what I hope to be a funded feature film, or C) a fan film --

And I only barely agree with doing B.

Short films, to me, are something you do in school to develop your reel or something you do for bits and giggles once you're a successful filmmaker. Anything else, IMO, is a waste of money.

If you do a fan film you're buying 10K worth of exposure. If you do a pilot, if it fails, you can still transition the pilot to the web and might still have a chance of being discovered by a network you didn't approach or by a non-content based company (like Microsoft, etc) who might want to pick up your show as a web series.

I, personally, am working on two projects right now: An original animated pilot and a fan film. Because I believe in what both products can lead to from a business standpoint.

Short films were fine in the days of 16mm and no internet. These days I just don't see the point outside of school work."
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I love shorts. They give you an opportunity to get straight to the point without all the filler that a lot of movies have these days.
 
I use em for technical, narrative and FX practice :)

Truth is, unless you have an earth shaking short, you aint getting much $ for it. Thus it is usually either a training, passion or practice medium.

Even a crappy B movie makes a bit of money (which really sux).

I really wish there was a bigger market for shorts!

Some epic stuff out there!
 
Thats a pretty ignorant statement. Anyone thats shot a short would know, they can be more of a challenge than a full length. One of the most difficult films I have ever done was a one minute short film. http://vimeo.com/7805501 For obvious reasons, but many the same issues apply. Not to mention, not everyone can afford to shoot a full length, and have no chioce. As someone above mentioned, it's better to shoot a great short, then a not so great feature. It really does get rid of some of the frivalous scenes, that we can do without.
 
Wilbur Eddings said:
I use em for technical, narrative and FX practice :)

Truth is, unless you have an earth shaking short, you aint getting much $ for it. Thus it is usually either a training, passion or practice medium.

Even a crappy B movie makes a bit of money (which really sux).

I really wish there was a bigger market for shorts!

Some epic stuff out there!
Click to expand...

You sound like you speak from experience, do you have anything you have sold, in a full length feature format? even if it is b-rated?
 
maranfilms said:
Thats a pretty ignorant statement. Anyone thats shot a short would know, they can be more of a challenge than a full length. One of the most difficult films I have ever done was a one minute short film. http://vimeo.com/7805501 For obvious reasons, but many the same issues apply. Not to mention, not everyone can afford to shoot a full length, and have no chioce. As someone above mentioned, it's better to shoot a great short, then a not so great feature. It really does get rid of some of the frivalous scenes, that we can do without.
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Well the quote was taken out of context, but irregardless, as a business decision I personally think a creator-owned short is the worst possible investment (especially of 10,000 dollars).

In context, I listed that a short that was intended to be fleshed out as a feature film could potentially be worthwhile in a business sense as it might gain interest in the property (and, potentially, you), but I'd still put that venture at the bottom of my list.

Personally I put a short fan film as the #1 resource for exposure and a television pilot "short" as the best investment economically -- because if your pilot doesn't get picked up, you can still transition it over to the web.

When you make a stand-alone, creator-owned short film...it just doesn't make any *economic* sense. That's why I'd personally leave it in a more academic setting or as something to do as a purely artistic effort.

But to each their own. :)
 
maranfilms said:
You sound like you speak from experience, do you have anything you have sold, in a full length feature format? even if it is b-rated?
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Yeah, sold a low budget (1 milUSD) action comedy 2 years ago and still waiting for the distributors to cover P&A etc. before I see a cent.

Thus we have bought Af100 and an F3 with various other grips n lights etc. We now do micro budget features for about 15-20k a pop (Doing 4 this year) and build up our equipment as we go along.

No messing around with distribution deals anymore. If we don't get at least 500k upfront from a distributor, we simply sell it straight to TV stations and move onto the next project.
No investors involved and it's very easy to make a profit when your budget is 15k ;)

Much less stressful than hat in hand festival strategies.

Strategy seems to be working so far cos our budget is increasing slightly and we are looking at an Alexa next :)

Extra info:
None of us get paid in cash for our projects, we all quote separately and determine slice of pie according to the percentage of production value.
Food, Accommodation and fuel is all we pay cash for (although we are now starting to get that for free from a major hotel group as a product placement barter).
Any HOD is who works on a project is automatically a shareholder and has access to bank info at any time.

A shoot is never longer than 14 days so that we all have the rest of the month to pay our bills.

All the practice is making us better and better as we move forward.

A 10k Feature is only really possible if you have an extremely fair and accountable logistics system in place.
Most of that 10k will go to food, fuel and runners.

We view food and fuel as the only non-negotiable expense on a shoot. (3 meals a day with two tea times and permanent craft!)
Everything else can be bartered, begged, borrowed or (sometimes) bought.

Hope that info helps you somehow. I'm a bit intimidated by some of the creatures that lurk on these forums!
 
First, this begs the question- what's a short? Not necessarily the 5-10 minute film.
IMDB says less than 45 minutes, the Academy says less than 40 minutes.

But how to sell it? I've seen some incredible 20-30 minute shorts at festivals- at both short festivals and on festival double bills (say, before a 60 minute feature).
I'd rather see an excellent, tight short, than something that's been stretched beyond its material to feature length.

But that's just me, as a viewer. I'm not sure how one would market a short
 
Wilbur Eddings said:
Yeah, sold a low budget (1 milUSD) action comedy 2 years ago and still waiting for the distributors to cover P&A etc. before I see a cent.

Thus we have bought Af100 and an F3 with various other grips n lights etc. We now do micro budget features for about 15-20k a pop (Doing 4 this year) and build up our equipment as we go along.

No messing around with distribution deals anymore. If we don't get at least 500k upfront from a distributor, we simply sell it straight to TV stations and move onto the next project.
No investors involved and it's very easy to make a profit when your budget is 15k ;)

Much less stressful than hat in hand festival strategies.

Strategy seems to be working so far cos our budget is increasing slightly and we are looking at an Alexa next :)

Extra info:
None of us get paid in cash for our projects, we all quote separately and determine slice of pie according to the percentage of production value.
Food, Accommodation and fuel is all we pay cash for (although we are now starting to get that for free from a major hotel group as a product placement barter).
Any HOD is who works on a project is automatically a shareholder and has access to bank info at any time.

A shoot is never longer than 14 days so that we all have the rest of the month to pay our bills.

All the practice is making us better and better as we move forward.

A 10k Feature is only really possible if you have an extremely fair and accountable logistics system in place.
Most of that 10k will go to food, fuel and runners.

We view food and fuel as the only non-negotiable expense on a shoot. (3 meals a day with two tea times and permanent craft!)
Everything else can be bartered, begged, borrowed or (sometimes) bought.

Hope that info helps you somehow. I'm a bit intimidated by some of the creatures that lurk on these forums!
Click to expand...

thanks for posting, I appreciate the info, there's some good stuff there. I thought the two tea times were funny, your obviously in the Uk. :)
 
Brian_Rice said:
Well the quote was taken out of context, but irregardless, as a business decision I personally think a creator-owned short is the worst possible investment (especially of 10,000 dollars).

In context, I listed that a short that was intended to be fleshed out as a feature film could potentially be worthwhile in a business sense as it might gain interest in the property (and, potentially, you), but I'd still put that venture at the bottom of my list.

Personally I put a short fan film as the #1 resource for exposure and a television pilot "short" as the best investment economically -- because if your pilot doesn't get picked up, you can still transition it over to the web.

When you make a stand-alone, creator-owned short film...it just doesn't make any *economic* sense. That's why I'd personally leave it in a more academic setting or as something to do as a purely artistic effort.

But to each their own. :)
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Sorry, if that sounded like I was saying your statement was ignorant, thats not what I meant:) After I re-read, i can see how one might take it that way. I do agree with much of what you say, im just speaking from my own personal view, and experience, certainly doesn't make it right though. :)
 
Wilbur Eddings said:
Yeah, sold a low budget (1 milUSD) action comedy 2 years ago and still waiting for the distributors to cover P&A etc. before I see a cent.

Thus we have bought Af100 and an F3 with various other grips n lights etc. We now do micro budget features for about 15-20k a pop (Doing 4 this year) and build up our equipment as we go along.

No messing around with distribution deals anymore. If we don't get at least 500k upfront from a distributor, we simply sell it straight to TV stations and move onto the next project.
No investors involved and it's very easy to make a profit when your budget is 15k ;)

Much less stressful than hat in hand festival strategies.

Strategy seems to be working so far cos our budget is increasing slightly and we are looking at an Alexa next :)

Extra info:
None of us get paid in cash for our projects, we all quote separately and determine slice of pie according to the percentage of production value.
Food, Accommodation and fuel is all we pay cash for (although we are now starting to get that for free from a major hotel group as a product placement barter).
Any HOD is who works on a project is automatically a shareholder and has access to bank info at any time.

A shoot is never longer than 14 days so that we all have the rest of the month to pay our bills.

All the practice is making us better and better as we move forward.

A 10k Feature is only really possible if you have an extremely fair and accountable logistics system in place.
Most of that 10k will go to food, fuel and runners.

We view food and fuel as the only non-negotiable expense on a shoot. (3 meals a day with two tea times and permanent craft!)
Everything else can be bartered, begged, borrowed or (sometimes) bought.

Hope that info helps you somehow. I'm a bit intimidated by some of the creatures that lurk on these forums!
Click to expand...

Love it when someone who's actually done comes around to speak. Thanks for your information, Eddings!

On the actual topic: do what you want to do. I'm with the camp that wouldn't dare spend 10K on a short film unless I didn't have to make that money back, but I've seen some really REALLY good short films that were worth the time and effort put into them.

Pick your poison.
 
maranfilms said:
thanks for posting, I appreciate the info, there's some good stuff there. I thought the two tea times were funny, your obviously in the Uk. :)
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lmao

Nope... Not UK, just like to keep my crew feeling special :)
That's not a tea 'break' by the way, it's a special little platter that a caterer offers to the crew while they work.
Very effective moral booster and makes the day feel shorter.

lol.. Reminds of an Asterix Comic (Asterix in Briton).
 
groveChuck said:
First, this begs the question- what's a short? Not necessarily the 5-10 minute film.
IMDB says less than 45 minutes, the Academy says less than 40 minutes.

But how to sell it? I've seen some incredible 20-30 minute shorts at festivals- at both short festivals and on festival double bills (say, before a 60 minute feature).
I'd rather see an excellent, tight short, than something that's been stretched beyond its material to feature length.

But that's just me, as a viewer. I'm not sure how one would market a short
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And that's really the only issue in all this. I don't think anyone here would argue that a 10K feature is going to be better than a 10K short simply by virtue of it being a feature. In fact I'd wager that *most* here would be in agreement that a 10K short would probably have a better overall esthetic than would a 10K feature film.

The issue is straight up cashflow. Creator-owned shorts are probably the most difficult thing to sell in an already immensely challenging industry.

What *could* be interesting would be 5-10 minute shorts assembled as a continued product (Flash Gordon Serials, etc) that you could show in theatres prior to previews. Usually you can buy that pre-show adspace -- and if you get something going in your city that way, I could then see possibly showing the entire serial series in a neighborhood theatre, gathering local reviews, and then potentially moving to DVD...? Just brainstorming.

But the stand-alone creator-owned short...man that's a tough mule to whip a profit out of.
 
Brian_Rice said:
What *could* be interesting would be 5-10 minute shorts assembled as a continued product (Flash Gordon Serials, etc) that you could show in theatres prior to previews. Usually you can buy that pre-show adspace -- and if you get something going in your city that way, I could then see possibly showing the entire serial series in a neighborhood theatre, gathering local reviews, and then potentially moving to DVD...? Just brainstorming.
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Not a bad idea! Seems like it could have potential...
 
groveChuck said:
Not a bad idea! Seems like it could have potential...
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Thanks.

Here's some quick research --

For small advertisers, cinema advertising is extremely affordable. The general rate is roughly $30 per screen per week for a :15 commercial which will run once during the pre-feature program. The rate for government and non-profit organizations is $18.00 per screen per week. Cinema spots, or rolling stock as they are known in cinema advertising, are available for purchase in unit lengths of :15, :30, :45, :60, :90, or :120, and most theaters require a four week minimum schedule of advertising.


As an independent video producer or small production company, this situation presents an opportunity to add another dimension to your business. You can provide production for rolling stock cinema advertising as an add-on option to local and regional advertisers in your area who may currently be running commercials on local TV or cable channels. In addition to the production revenue, you can also offer to place the media and mark up these charges as well.

Here's the whole article:

http://www.videouniversity.com/articles/commercials-in-movie-theaters
 
groveChuck said:
Interesting article, for both shorts and spots. I wonder if theaters would make any distinction between the two, as long as their rate is being met?
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I doubt it. They might have some guidelines for content, though. Violence, language, sex, etc.
 
Each approach has its merits. Shorts are good for any number of things: learning, exposure, experimentation. But here's a reason to do a feature: it's really different from a short. A short will teach you some things, but only doing a feature teaches you about doing a feature. If you eventually want to do features, that's what you should do. If I had $10K to spend on a feature or a short, I would spend it on a feature - because if my aim is to learn to shoot features, then I'm learning more from shooting a feature than a short. If I had $20K, I wouldn't shoot a short for $10K and a feature for $10K, I'd shoot a feature for $20K. And so on. There are certain things you learn about pacing, story development, production and so forth that are very, very different on a short vs a feature - so if you want to be a feature director, while there is nothing wrong with doing shorts, if you only have one shot and $10K, I'd go with a feature. That's my view, but to each his/her own.
 
Very interesting and thought provoking replies. I think I was looking at this situation differently than how you guys are looking at it. In my mind, the goal was to make something that's top quality that will get you attention in festivals and Hollywood and than allow you to connect with those who have access to big studio toys and money so you can make big studio films. It wasn't to make something that will make a profit because I was thinking with the mindset of an independent film maker trying to make it in Hollywood


IDK my bff jill
 
"Short films, to me, are something you do in school to develop your reel or something you do for bits and giggles once you're a successful filmmaker"

Those silly Oscars they give for short films. Silly.
 
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