Just one more question. I have seen the 5dmarkII on the big screen at the theatre ( Act of Valor ) which I though it was beautiful on the big screen. Is there any movie that has been shot with the FS700. The movie they are making are for theatre release. I wouldn't mind getting on DVD or buying just to see on a large TV just to get a feel of the footage.
Shooting a feature film in the next 2 weeks. Red Scarlet or Fs700?
- Thread starter Daomay
- Start date
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Daomay;1986357362.. Odyssey7Q which I will pre-order on monday.[/QUOTE said:
Never schedule anything on products that are not already available. It is even worse if you get other excited to shoot the movie with something that most likely won't be in your hands in time. FS700 will fall apart in post with 8 bit codec. If you want to avoid this bottleneck and be sure you actually have a recorder you have to buy or rent Sony's own RAW recorder. Even with very small chance that you got your Odyssey on 15th, it would be crazy to go shoot with it without testing and getting familiar with it first.
I'm thinking you will need more than a single 1st AC on a 10 day sched.... maybe think Acam 1st / Bcam op + 2nd that can pull focus + a trainee that can help on Bcam
look at it this way you will be shooting 8-10 pages a day, that's a page every hour, with masters, mid's, over's.... way too much to get quality work done by one camera, one DP/op... not even mentioning additional beauty shots you will want to get, and that's what they want you for - not the meat & potatoes coverage
You will need a second body on set as a back-up, and building it up to be a Bcam and getting overs, and splintering it off for extablishers saves a huge amount of time... another thing that has worked for me in the past is a Bcam op/ gaffer combo...
You may well be exhausted by day 4, and your AC will be worse, they have as much or more stress than you will, you need to protect the Ac and get them the resources that they need to let you shine...
A external recorder is needed, the internal codec softens the image substaintialy, and the compression artifacts are killers in the gradeing suite.. makeing the assumption that it's destined for a big screen...
I too have really enjoyed your work, and can see why a producer would give you a shot at it.... i would surround myself with as many crew that are experienced in the grind of dramatic tv as i can hire, your sched is closest to that... 10 days is pretty crazy.. i would approach with extreme caution
d
starcentral
Veteran
I read on page 2 you already decided on FS700 but my comment would have been:
Who's grading the film, and how much budget/money/time is going towards it? Will it be you or someone else?
RED has a proven color science that has only gotten better over the years. If you are not shooting RAW on the FS700 with RAW upgrade + AXS-R5, or even in slog mode, then you are really limiting the dynamic range and options in post should it be needed.
Cheers,
Who's grading the film, and how much budget/money/time is going towards it? Will it be you or someone else?
RED has a proven color science that has only gotten better over the years. If you are not shooting RAW on the FS700 with RAW upgrade + AXS-R5, or even in slog mode, then you are really limiting the dynamic range and options in post should it be needed.
Cheers,
Act of Valor used significant post processing to improve the image quality: (Dark Energy Pro, $13k starting price): http://cinnafilm.com/dark-energy/dark-energy-professional/
It still looked soft on my HDTV (didn't see in theaters, but was much softer than typical BluRay and even streaming Netflix material).
Upstream Color was shot on the GH2 (the FS700 is better): http://www.amazon.com/Upstream-Color/dp/B00BMTX0SC/. It looked fine on BluRay, however the story's a bit weird (that's art; but image-wise it was acceptable; not distracting from the story). The FS700 will be fine for the big screen, BluRay, and streaming (an external recorder can buy you some post-safety).
Hey guys,
I have spoken to the producer regarding the FS700 with the O7Q in mind. I think they said I should go with the RED road if the recorder might not get here on time. I have never use a RED and I wouldn't know how to handle the pressure of operating the camera and having to worry about shooting my scenes. I think I will still order the Oydessy7Q. After listening to all the advise perhaps I might have to think twice about the project. If it is my own film I wouldn't think twice. I would work with what I have but this is someone elses film. If I could use the FS700 with slog2-2K-Oy7Q....I am confidence that the footage would be good enough from reading and following all the update on this forum from DAN. Thank you again for the advise. I see if SONY Australia does have the AXS-R5 for lease and how much it might be for that 10 days shoot.
I have spoken to the producer regarding the FS700 with the O7Q in mind. I think they said I should go with the RED road if the recorder might not get here on time. I have never use a RED and I wouldn't know how to handle the pressure of operating the camera and having to worry about shooting my scenes. I think I will still order the Oydessy7Q. After listening to all the advise perhaps I might have to think twice about the project. If it is my own film I wouldn't think twice. I would work with what I have but this is someone elses film. If I could use the FS700 with slog2-2K-Oy7Q....I am confidence that the footage would be good enough from reading and following all the update on this forum from DAN. Thank you again for the advise. I see if SONY Australia does have the AXS-R5 for lease and how much it might be for that 10 days shoot.
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Daomay- if you have an assistant who knows how to use the RED, go for it (kind of like a caddy & Pro golfer 
) . RAW shooting is really pretty simple (all processing except ISO/gain done in post). However, you should at least have time to shoot some tests so you can see what you'll get. Sounds like they are paying for your eye / composition / art. If you have a competent technician to help you, you'll make a great team and produce a nice result. You only live once- don't second guess yourself- this sounds like your dream!
) . RAW shooting is really pretty simple (all processing except ISO/gain done in post). However, you should at least have time to shoot some tests so you can see what you'll get. Sounds like they are paying for your eye / composition / art. If you have a competent technician to help you, you'll make a great team and produce a nice result. You only live once- don't second guess yourself- this sounds like your dream!Derek Chingwell
Well-known member
Can you get hold a a Red for a prep day?
One question - does the movie have lots of slowmo? If that's the case, the producers might want to think about an Epic.
Another question - lenses. What do you intend to use (if FS700 or Red?).
Honestly, the Scarlet/Epic is a lot easier than you think... really a lot easier. No baked in WB or ISO... all RAW and changeable later.
Looking at some of your vimeo work, you may well find the way that the RED handles highlights/rolloff/clipping etc to be helpful in getting your final look. Plus, that final look will have a lot more flexibility in post.
As I said, ask for a prep day - or even half a day... read up on the Red and see where that gets you.
Edit - LOL - JCS beat me to it saying the same thing
One question - does the movie have lots of slowmo? If that's the case, the producers might want to think about an Epic.
Another question - lenses. What do you intend to use (if FS700 or Red?).
Honestly, the Scarlet/Epic is a lot easier than you think... really a lot easier. No baked in WB or ISO... all RAW and changeable later.
Looking at some of your vimeo work, you may well find the way that the RED handles highlights/rolloff/clipping etc to be helpful in getting your final look. Plus, that final look will have a lot more flexibility in post.
As I said, ask for a prep day - or even half a day... read up on the Red and see where that gets you.
Edit - LOL - JCS beat me to it saying the same thing
Jim Ritscher
Well-known member
Favoring the FS-700:
- You know the camera.
- You have it rigged the way you want it.
- Good slo-mo.
- No Red fan noise.
- Smaller file sizes (in general).
- Easier learning curve.
- Cheaper to use a second camera, if that is valuable for you.
- Sound is a little easier.
Favoring the Red (I suggest you use Epic):
- Because of the First AC you get free training. Thus you gain a skill you didn't have before. (A lot depends on your relationship with this person).
- Better ability to grade.
- Somewhat better image quality.
- Better not to use the odyessy 7Q (too new).
- You know the camera.
- You have it rigged the way you want it.
- Good slo-mo.
- No Red fan noise.
- Smaller file sizes (in general).
- Easier learning curve.
- Cheaper to use a second camera, if that is valuable for you.
- Sound is a little easier.
Favoring the Red (I suggest you use Epic):
- Because of the First AC you get free training. Thus you gain a skill you didn't have before. (A lot depends on your relationship with this person).
- Better ability to grade.
- Somewhat better image quality.
- Better not to use the odyessy 7Q (too new).
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
The movie "The Kitchen" was shot on a FS-100 and I thought it looked pretty good. I believe that a film shot on the FS-700 would look more than marginally "Better". It is available from Netflix, disc and streaming. It is pretty "Girlie", but it is a nice little movie.
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Colinelves
Well-known member
Hi Daomay,
Bring an FS700 owner myself, but having worked with red (Epics) a lot recently I would say that a big part of the decision will rest upon what and how you are shooting.
If you are used to the FS700 and it's insanely fast and clean chip (augmented further by a speed booster) then you might come in for quite a shock when using a Red in anything but daylight. The FS700 comfortably works at up to ISO 3200 with no noticeable increase in noise - while the Red is stuck at ISO 320 - you can crank the metadata up to 6400 - but you're just stretching the bottom of the exposure curve and the resulting images are really noisy - so 320 is really where it's at.
Bear in mind that is 3 1/2 stops of difference between the two cameras, which means the FS700 can work with 1/12 the amount of light! Trust me - that will make a huge difference as soon as you want to shoot interior or any night scenes.
As Sam has said the Reds are also really poor for run and gun, documentary style work. The lack of internal NDs is a pain (although a variable ND on each lens makes it workable), they're really heavy - which will wear you out a lot more when you're having to lug them about or operate hand held and they pretty unreliable - they just freak out on you all the time: shutting down, becoming unresponsive, going strange colours, randomly messing with the lens iris (if on Canon EF lenses) - all of which can slow you down massively as you wait 2 mins for the camera to restart after you shut it down (to clear the bugs). They're impossible to use if the director wants to go for long takes (over 10 mins in length) as the fan will kick in at full blast mid take. Finally, they also chew through batteries and SSDs like no tomorrow - so you'll need a lot of batteries and a big charging station, plus a DIT to handle the rushes.
Having said all that. Being able to shoot 4K raw makes a big difference in terms of bing able to grade the footage and for cinema release - so if it is likely to get a cinema release (but let's be honest, most low budget features don't) then I'd be tempted to go Red.
Unless, of course, you have the 4K upgrade and can get hold of a Sony interface and reorder - then I'd probably shoot FS700! Although if they're happy to hire, you might be better off with an F5 or F55 raw package if you can get it...
all the best,
Colin Elves
DP, London
www.colinelves.com
Bring an FS700 owner myself, but having worked with red (Epics) a lot recently I would say that a big part of the decision will rest upon what and how you are shooting.
If you are used to the FS700 and it's insanely fast and clean chip (augmented further by a speed booster) then you might come in for quite a shock when using a Red in anything but daylight. The FS700 comfortably works at up to ISO 3200 with no noticeable increase in noise - while the Red is stuck at ISO 320 - you can crank the metadata up to 6400 - but you're just stretching the bottom of the exposure curve and the resulting images are really noisy - so 320 is really where it's at.
Bear in mind that is 3 1/2 stops of difference between the two cameras, which means the FS700 can work with 1/12 the amount of light! Trust me - that will make a huge difference as soon as you want to shoot interior or any night scenes.
As Sam has said the Reds are also really poor for run and gun, documentary style work. The lack of internal NDs is a pain (although a variable ND on each lens makes it workable), they're really heavy - which will wear you out a lot more when you're having to lug them about or operate hand held and they pretty unreliable - they just freak out on you all the time: shutting down, becoming unresponsive, going strange colours, randomly messing with the lens iris (if on Canon EF lenses) - all of which can slow you down massively as you wait 2 mins for the camera to restart after you shut it down (to clear the bugs). They're impossible to use if the director wants to go for long takes (over 10 mins in length) as the fan will kick in at full blast mid take. Finally, they also chew through batteries and SSDs like no tomorrow - so you'll need a lot of batteries and a big charging station, plus a DIT to handle the rushes.
Having said all that. Being able to shoot 4K raw makes a big difference in terms of bing able to grade the footage and for cinema release - so if it is likely to get a cinema release (but let's be honest, most low budget features don't) then I'd be tempted to go Red.
Unless, of course, you have the 4K upgrade and can get hold of a Sony interface and reorder - then I'd probably shoot FS700! Although if they're happy to hire, you might be better off with an F5 or F55 raw package if you can get it...
all the best,
Colin Elves
DP, London
www.colinelves.com
Hey guys,
I have spoken to the Producer and the Director. I don't think I will take on the roll. Instead I have offer them the opportunity for me to go into the set and observe and assist. I think with how far I am come with my skills I don't think it will take long before I am comfortable enough to do a feature for someone. I just don't want to stuff it up for them. I am confidence in craft but just not in my tool at the moment. I am so happy with everyone for being supportive and the encouragement from some of you pro has made me even more determine to go out and learn about more about this wonderful industry which I think it might be something I could be doing for years to come.
I am very sorry if I have wasted anyone time here but please be assure that all the advise you have given me today I will take it to the heart. As for next project I will won't disappoint any of you. I shoot almost every week and I have always like to share the love. I rang up the Convergent Design reseller in Australia. They said they will give me a call once the oydessy7Q arrive in Australia.
For the time being I am just going to keep shooting.
Thanks everyone.
I have spoken to the Producer and the Director. I don't think I will take on the roll. Instead I have offer them the opportunity for me to go into the set and observe and assist. I think with how far I am come with my skills I don't think it will take long before I am comfortable enough to do a feature for someone. I just don't want to stuff it up for them. I am confidence in craft but just not in my tool at the moment. I am so happy with everyone for being supportive and the encouragement from some of you pro has made me even more determine to go out and learn about more about this wonderful industry which I think it might be something I could be doing for years to come.
I am very sorry if I have wasted anyone time here but please be assure that all the advise you have given me today I will take it to the heart. As for next project I will won't disappoint any of you. I shoot almost every week and I have always like to share the love. I rang up the Convergent Design reseller in Australia. They said they will give me a call once the oydessy7Q arrive in Australia.
For the time being I am just going to keep shooting.
Thanks everyone.
paulcurtis
Veteran
jcs,
Antimatter on AE is $400, i have a couple of licenses as use it. It's part of a pipeline that i have that took 1080p, scaled to 4k using wavelet scaling, add sharpening, noise/dither, downsample to 2K and DeNoise with Antimatter. It produces fairly subtle sharpening and gives me a very clean 2K master which works better for me and vfx elements. The update of AM now works in 4K so i may try a few different things. However this process does help with smoothing off subtle 8 bit banding which was my main reason. It also helps clean the noise floor a bit. I don't believe the hardware version is functionally that much better, just a lot faster (could be wrong there).
Having said that i'm not looking for supersharp imagery and if i feel something it too soft then it gets a dose of selective sharpening in resolve.
Plus when things are moving you loose a lot of what we see as sharpness, especially if it's denoised. That noise tricks us a lot into thinking more detail. I can see this at the end of a pipeline when footage is regrained.
Daomay,
Sorry to hear you've rethought it out - it's quite an adventure doing something like that. Why not suggest a B Cam situation and perhaps be 2nd unit? Of course some DPs don't operate anyway (especially in the US) so with a big enough crew you could have just let the dept handle the tech (although it sounds like a small crew situation in your case)
cheers
Paul
Antimatter on AE is $400, i have a couple of licenses as use it. It's part of a pipeline that i have that took 1080p, scaled to 4k using wavelet scaling, add sharpening, noise/dither, downsample to 2K and DeNoise with Antimatter. It produces fairly subtle sharpening and gives me a very clean 2K master which works better for me and vfx elements. The update of AM now works in 4K so i may try a few different things. However this process does help with smoothing off subtle 8 bit banding which was my main reason. It also helps clean the noise floor a bit. I don't believe the hardware version is functionally that much better, just a lot faster (could be wrong there).
Having said that i'm not looking for supersharp imagery and if i feel something it too soft then it gets a dose of selective sharpening in resolve.
Plus when things are moving you loose a lot of what we see as sharpness, especially if it's denoised. That noise tricks us a lot into thinking more detail. I can see this at the end of a pipeline when footage is regrained.
Daomay,
Sorry to hear you've rethought it out - it's quite an adventure doing something like that. Why not suggest a B Cam situation and perhaps be 2nd unit? Of course some DPs don't operate anyway (especially in the US) so with a big enough crew you could have just let the dept handle the tech (although it sounds like a small crew situation in your case)
cheers
Paul
Thank you Paul.
Hey Daomay,
One thing I might suggest is to go out and buy some lights and learn how to shoot with artificial lighting. That's super fun and a HUGE part of becoming a DP. Shooting in daylight / natural light is one thing, but learning to light is just as important if not more important. Plus, it's a lot more technical than shooting in daylight IMO.
The thing that I've realized now that I'm starting to get past all the free / low budget jobs that I've been DPing for what seems like forever, is that when you work with a crew things get a lot easier actually, especially if you have a good gaffer, then the role of DP becomes pretty easy actually.
Good luck on your DP journey!
One thing I might suggest is to go out and buy some lights and learn how to shoot with artificial lighting. That's super fun and a HUGE part of becoming a DP. Shooting in daylight / natural light is one thing, but learning to light is just as important if not more important. Plus, it's a lot more technical than shooting in daylight IMO.
The thing that I've realized now that I'm starting to get past all the free / low budget jobs that I've been DPing for what seems like forever, is that when you work with a crew things get a lot easier actually, especially if you have a good gaffer, then the role of DP becomes pretty easy actually.
Good luck on your DP journey!
Scott F
Pug Life
All tech talk aside, I would f-ing love to see a film shot by Daomay, no matter what camera you might end up using. I'm a big fan of the clips you've shared here. (especially the one with the girl dancing on the beach)
keep us in the loop if you do get the chance to DP in the future.
keep us in the loop if you do get the chance to DP in the future.
Colinelves
Well-known member
I'll second that one - a good gaffer basically does your job for you, which is why they are so invaluable!
Hey guys,
I have havent been on this site much because I have been shooting for a few corporate stuffs to support my gears but it is very rewarding when you looks at your kick ass gear everyday
Just ike gene said... Now I just need to get some light and practice indoor more with control lights.
I have havent been on this site much because I have been shooting for a few corporate stuffs to support my gears but it is very rewarding when you looks at your kick ass gear everyday
Just ike gene said... Now I just need to get some light and practice indoor more with control lights.
