Shooting 60P for 24P
- Thread starter Boz
- Start date
Excellent footage Kholi. I agree that 720p at the 1/60th shutter (haven't tried 1/80th yet) looks pretty smooth, especially with normal action. I might find myself gettin picky if it was a shot that allowed for extreme scrutiny. But, drawing on my core belief that content is king, if the material is compelling, nobody cares about the tiny details.
My guess on what was 720p is - 00:10, 03:08, and 3:17
joe 1008
Veteran
Framerate conversion from 60p to 24p should work excellent, there's so much information (60frames & few blur at 1/60 shutter) that the software (Twixtor or Compressor) never has to do guesswork. IMO this is the best way to get 24p AND 1/48 shutter.
Editing on a 60p timeline allows you to convert the final clip, only. At about 1hour rendertime for 1 minute of footage many projects can be rendered over night.
Editing on a 60p timeline allows you to convert the final clip, only. At about 1hour rendertime for 1 minute of footage many projects can be rendered over night.
John Caballero
Veteran
I just did a test with 720p60 shot with the HVX to Edius 24p timeline and it looked pretty good to me. Barry Green uses Edius, I wish he would comment on this process and how to get the best results.
joe 1008
Veteran
All the Canon 5D MKII boards are full of that stuff. Most people get good results converting 30p to 24p with Twixtor or Compressor. But there are tricky situations, where the software doesn't correctly analize and interpolate the frames. There is simply a lot of empty space with lack of information at 30p. So at 60p it should work much better (but maybe it will render slower?). Compressor also renders motion blur, so you could get a 1/48 shutter in post. Don't know if Twixtor does so, too.
One experienced posters here with this tecnique is Lee Wilson; he mostly shows up in the 5D department, but he might do us the favor and comment here about framerate conversion.
SonicStates
Well-known member
Yeah John, I'm on Edius too but my computer chokes with the avchd situation so I have to get rolling with either a new i7 machine (mainly because I like new toys) or fork out more for RAM on the xeon platform I am working on (it is embarrasingly under-equipped for this type of work).
Would also love to hear what Barry has to say.
Jackson Miller
Well-known member
What does 60p with 1/60th shutter speed look like if you decide to actually use that footage for slo-mo? I mean, normally you would shoot 1/120th if you were planning on using the footage for smooth slo-mo shots, right?. But if you shot all of your footage in 60p at 1/60th shutter speed, would you be fine if you decided to use some of that for slo-mo? How would it look different? Less sharp I guess... but what else? Say we are talking about filming a person running or filming a skate video. Would the slo-mos have the desired effect even though you aren't using 1/120th?
Thanks
Thanks
ydgmdlu
Veteran
The "film look" requires at least a 180-degree shutter, or in other words 1/120th shutter speed. Any slower, and it won't look right. Specifically, there will be too much motion blur. You won't like it at all. You can probably find some footage shot at 720p60 with 1/60th shutter speed posted in the footage forum. Using that you can do your own test.
Jackson Miller
Well-known member
Thanks man. Any links on how exactly that works? I'll have to do my own tests once I get it I guess.
I can't open .mts files though... at the moment.
I can't open .mts files though... at the moment.
Jean Dantes
Well-known member
Wait a second. Wouldn't it be that if I dropped 50P into a 25P timeline, it'd playback 50% slower?
Jackson Miller
Well-known member
No, not unless you tell it to by configuring it with cinema tools or similar before hand as far as I understand. Your timeline will basically turn it into 25 p. or 24 p.
Tim Joy
Veteran
I've been trying to wrap my head around this 60 for 24 thing and made a little graphic to help visualize what it would look like. This graph shows one second, 60 frames on the top, 24 on the bottom.
As you can see, it doesn't always line up.
Does these minute differences actually make a difference? Obviously, the most it could be off is 1/120th of a second.
Do some conversions compensate for this?
there's 2 ways to do the conversion: by dropping frames or by interpolating/blending frame information.
If your NLE simply drops frames to go from 60p to 24p it will have to follow an irregular cadence: keep one, drop one, keep one, drop two... and so on. This makes the kept frames unevenly spaced in time, some people find this disturbing, most don't notice it at all. In shots with little motion it's almost imposible to notice. In shots with regular speed motion, such as a ball rolling from one side of the screen to the other or a car passing by, you could notice some jerkiness in the movement.
Other NLEs that do frame blending, or other that do the even more complicated frame interpolation, try to make one frame by "mixing" the information of every 2.5 frames in to one. This can result in a more fluid motion, but usually results in ghosting or strange artifacts.
A perfect conversion cannot be done because 60 is not a multiple of 24. Lucky PAL land users can do a perfect conversion from 50p to 25p by simply dropping every other frame. We NTSC people can do a perfect conversion from 60p to 30p.
If your NLE simply drops frames to go from 60p to 24p it will have to follow an irregular cadence: keep one, drop one, keep one, drop two... and so on. This makes the kept frames unevenly spaced in time, some people find this disturbing, most don't notice it at all. In shots with little motion it's almost imposible to notice. In shots with regular speed motion, such as a ball rolling from one side of the screen to the other or a car passing by, you could notice some jerkiness in the movement.
Other NLEs that do frame blending, or other that do the even more complicated frame interpolation, try to make one frame by "mixing" the information of every 2.5 frames in to one. This can result in a more fluid motion, but usually results in ghosting or strange artifacts.
A perfect conversion cannot be done because 60 is not a multiple of 24. Lucky PAL land users can do a perfect conversion from 50p to 25p by simply dropping every other frame. We NTSC people can do a perfect conversion from 60p to 30p.
Boz
Well-known member
That's a perfect description of the options and how they work, Dmoreno. I continually hear people say they'll shoot 30P/60P for fast moving shots (where mud can be an issue) on the GH1 then convert to 24P. Yet I've asked for good working samples of this and have yet to see even one. I think there are going to be a lot of surprised/disappointed people out there when they shoot and convert over to 24P. :-/
It certainly isn't as easy as "drop it on a 24p timeline" as some people have said. It can be done as easy as that, but the results may be less than perfect depending on the way the NLE handles the footage. Most people may find the conversion to work well, we are used to watch uneven cadences in 24p movies with 3:2 pulldown we've watched on TV since we were kids.
I am also waiting for some 720 60p footage to try the conversion myself and decide if it works for me.
I am also waiting for some 720 60p footage to try the conversion myself and decide if it works for me.
John Caballero
Veteran
If it works for you thats what counts. Technology and software is so advanced and becoming more so that a lot of things are possible in post. The secret for pros at this stuff is always work with the right software and be good at creating with it.
I'd like to speed up music while shooting a music video so that I can sync it in slow motion using the 60p to 24p method.
Does anyone know the percentage? Is there a simple way to do this in audacity, logic or pro tools?
(i'm sure this has been answered 100 times, but I can't seem to find a direct answer)
Does anyone know the percentage? Is there a simple way to do this in audacity, logic or pro tools?
(i'm sure this has been answered 100 times, but I can't seem to find a direct answer)
60i or 60p to reduce judder when panning?
60i or 60p to reduce judder when panning?
I am wondering when it is adventageous to shoot at 60i or 60p to reduce "judder" when panning. With my GH2 and GH3, this judder effect is annoying at 24p, even at very slow pans. Are there other ways to deal with it? I know that 24p creates a more "filmic" motion blur, but sometimes I would rather sacrifice that to avoid the judder.
I looked for the video posted in Stu's thread (below), but unfortunately it has been deleted. Still, he gives a good explanation of how frames are dropped when converting from 60fps to 24fps.
60i or 60p to reduce judder when panning?
I am wondering when it is adventageous to shoot at 60i or 60p to reduce "judder" when panning. With my GH2 and GH3, this judder effect is annoying at 24p, even at very slow pans. Are there other ways to deal with it? I know that 24p creates a more "filmic" motion blur, but sometimes I would rather sacrifice that to avoid the judder.
I looked for the video posted in Stu's thread (below), but unfortunately it has been deleted. Still, he gives a good explanation of how frames are dropped when converting from 60fps to 24fps.