Shooting 60P for 24P

Isaac_Brody said:
Boz, that footage isn't 60P, it's 30P. When the shutter dips below 60 in 720P mode it shifts into 30P mode. That's why it looks FUNKY.
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Sorry, but you are mistaken; either that or my software is lying to me. This is file properties BEFORE conversion:

fps.jpg


I'll be happy to convert any other file, but this one showed it best.
 
It's lying to you. And it's already been discussed and confirmed by GH-1 OWNERS that anything below 1/60 shutter is NOT actual 60P.

Dont' know why people aren't listening.
 
I didn't shoot the footage, so I don't know for sure. How do you know this wasn't shot at 60P? Was it posted somewhere? Anyway, I'm going to do some more tests with 60P footage to confirm. Trust me, I want to be wrong in this case.
 
It was shot at 60P, and Sonic said that he shot with 1/30 shutter. That means it's not 60P. There's a thread up in the Discussion clarifying this all.
 
Ah found it! So much to catch up on. OK, I'll pull that clip down. Sorry about that misunderstanding. I'm doing new tests with 'confirmed' 60P clips now.
 
Aha... there's now a thread for this. Where do I begin. First off. We don't have to scrounge for GH1 footage to test technique and workflow. Just shoot 60p on the HVX200 and start testing away.

For reference, here's 24p native with 1/48th shutter speed:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/HVX200_24p-720x405.mov

Now 60p shot with 1/30th and dumped into a 24p timeline is awful:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/HVX200_60p-24p_onethirty-720x405.mov

Kholi mentioned 1/60th and that has come out decent:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/HVX200_60p-24p_onesixty-720x405.mov

But it still looks stuttery to me. It could be said that it merely looks like 24p with a higher shutter speed. And that's cool if that's what you're after. But what if you wish for it be smoother? Slowing down shutter is not an option.

So I thought I'd try throwing motion blur on it using ReelSmart Motion Blur - http://www.revisionfx.com/products/rsmb/

Here's the result:
http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/HVX200_60p-24p_onesixty_rsmb-720x405.mov

I think I've come to my conclusion on this, but I wanted to share the findings, because this has been a pain in the a** to figure out.
 
Thanks - good test - and for me, shooting 60p for 24p is a nogo. People do have different motion sensitivities - I see DLP rainbows etc. easily, so the stutter bothers me.
 
So, I did think of one last solution which would look very smooth, but you'd lose your sync. Conform 60p to 24p using FCP and Cinema Tools. The end result is just like slowing down 30p to 24p.

Only way I found to do it with HVX200 60p is the following:

Drop 59.94fps clip into a 29.97fps timeline in FCP, then export that out, then conform that exported clip to 23.98fps with Cinema Tools.

Does anyone have any ideas of a quicker process of doing this?
 
maybe this is where a PAL version of the GH1 is a better idea. 50p to 24p seems a more natural conversion.
 
In the end, the 23.98 drop does look like 24 with a higher shutter. Certainly.

I like Holyzoo's examples of Twixtor and the Motion Blur. I'll try some twixtor as well to see what it produces.

Also going to give 1080/24 another run tomorrow and try Holyzoo's 60 > 29.97 Timeline then the 30P Conversion that Squig posted.

And do a 720/30P MJPEG to 24 conversion tomorrow.
 
I assume the MJPEG footage does not need a powerful computer like AVCHD for realtime editing? Will I be ok with a 3 GHz P4?
 
Thank you everybody! That was a highly interesting crashcourse of workarounds. Definitely PAL-people are better off.

Kholi: If you can, please try what happens with the 1080p aliasing when downscaling the 24p footage to 720p. (or running it through a antialiasing filter like there is in Compressor, for example.) Personally, I'm more scared about aliasing than about the RS.
 
holyzoo said:
Twixtor Test:

720p60 shot 1/60th shutter. Dropped into a 60fps comp in After Effects. Dropped that comp into a 24fps comp and applied Twixtor to it.

http://www.holyzoo.com/content/dslr/60p_from_HVX200_Twixtor_to_24-720x405.mov

For anyone who has done any 30p to 24p Twixtor'ing, I'm seeing a clear advantage to converting 60p to 24p vs converting 30p to 24p. There's twice as much information from which to do its thing.
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This is definitely the best result I've seen thus far. Thanks for doing the test! Will twixtoring footage in any way affect audio sync? Just curious.

All of this pretty much confirms my workflow that I'm going to use:

  • Shoot 1080P whenever possible. Strip 60i wrapper and scale down to 720P.
  • Shoot 720-60P for high intensity or high detail shots. Convert to 24P.
Simple, yet effective. A perfect solution? No. But it will work for me. :)
 
That clip is awesome. As I stated on Vimeo, you have single handedly restored my faith in the GH1. Though, for action shots I still think it will be trouble.

I'm too tired to go through the whole thing looking for those 60P clips. But since I didn't notice them straight away, I guess that's a good thing! Did you use final-cut for this? I'm having trouble getting it to read MTS files.
 
The action stuff was 60P aside from that very last shot. Purposely used 1080/24 on that so II would know for a FACT it wouldnt' work. didn't hurt to try.

The 720/60 will be excellent.

and yeah, if you don't notice right away and you have to scrub to find it then I personally think that mixing 720/60 will be a great workflow.

I'm using FCP. Log and transfer. The original clips probably don't work well because the file structures are off.

You can't just upload one or two clips, you have to shoot what you want on the actual card and just upload the entire card. That's what sonic did on his latest stuff, check it out.

Oh and the stuff at the end -- rehearsal for my next GH-1 test.
 
dcloud said:
would buyinga pal cam (50p to 25p) be a better option? :)
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Should work better. All frames are in place, 1/50 shutter is almost the same as 1/48, and each frame has more data, you only throw away 50%. The only trade off is the slow down from 25p to 24p (and some danger of lightning flicher in a 60Hz environment maybe?)

But Kholis clip convinced me that in most situations you are fine with the 60p pulldown. Also downrezzing 1080p to 720p seems to quit or reduce many artefacts. (That's something I would like to know more about - Kholi, can you hear me?)
 
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