FS5: Shogun Inferno now, or Ninja V later?

M

mcbob

Veteran
I have enough projects requiring external recording/monitoring lately that I really should just buy one (I've already spent half the V's cost on Inferno rentals this year), but after a few weeks of the pro/con weighing, I still can't make up my mind. What am I not thinking about or considering?

INFERNO:
Solid Pro - Larger monitor, SDI
Minor pro - Raw via SDI (haven't needed yet)
Con - Power hungry, YUGE.

NINJA V:
Solid Pro - Smaller, lighter, less battery-guzzling
Minor pro - possible upgradability (but what capabilities, and how soon?)
Con - smaller screen, no SDI

Ideally I'd buy both, but budgets and all that. Rather have some better lighting than two recorders
 
I can't see making an investment in a recording monitor if it is not SDI capable which is a requirement for FS5, EVA-1, and or even an FS7 to record PRORES RAW or CDNG from its RAW 12-bit output. The NINJA is a much more beautiful design and I even looked at purchasing it myself (and I own a Shogun Inferno and FS5) but it is limited that it only has HDMI and that was disappointing for me as and FS5 owner. Yes it will be a beautiful addition to cameras like the GH5, A6500, or the A7 series of cameras to record 10-bit PRORES HQ which is much better than Sony's 8-bit 4k internal codecs, but it really does nothing other than give you an additional codec if you are using the FS5 or EVA1. As a shogun / FS5 owner in all my projects I would not be willing to give up the 4k resolution increase and and slow-motion capabilities (along with PRORES RAW which so far has been amazing to use) to have albeit a smaller less capable monitor (which will make waveforms and focus peaking smaller and less visible and nailing critical focus even harder). Also just my opinion but if you haven't used PRORES RAW I recommend working with it before you make your final decision as I have been experiencing much better exposure latitude in comparison to PRORES HQ.
 
The Ninja's got to change. They gave it raw recording capability, but then made it HDMI-only, which cannot now and never will be used for transporting raw data. So they're stuck. The only way out that I can see is them adding some sort of SDI add-on module. Or cancelling the Ninja V and releasing a new Ninja VI that does have SDI. Or releasing a new Ninja VI but removing the raw recording claim.

There's pretty much no other way out of the mess they made when they tried to force a nonstandard HDMI implementation. Well, I guess a third way out would be to introduce their own camera which has HDMI raw. But they're going to have to take one of those three steps.

If I were to bet, I would put my money on some manner of SDI adapter, unless that turns out to be impossible due to hardware limitations.

In any case, no way would I buy a Ninja V for raw recording at this time. If your primary need is.for raw recording, go with the Shogun. Or wait to see what happens with the Ninja if you don't need a raw recorder right now.
 
They did heavily hint at the possibility of an SDI adapter in the future. I’m not doing raw at present, just broadcast acceptable 4K vs. the 8-bit bs.

The HDMI doesn’t bother me so much (it’s what I have to use presently for 4K output anyway), but yeah... focusing 4K on a 5” screen does. The Ninja would be useable in a shoulder configuration, the Shogun... not so much.

Yep. Just not an easy decision.
 
In my time with the Odyssey 7Q+ and the PIX E5H, I can say that the smaller PIX was vastly preferable for portability. Focusing 4K isn't necessarily so bad on the small screen, as you can mirror the LCD's output on the external monitor and take advantage of the magnified focus assist and peaking, or you can use the magnified focus assist on the external.
 
Barry_Green said:
The Ninja's got to change. They gave it raw recording capability, but then made it HDMI-only, which cannot now and never will be used for transporting raw data. So they're stuck. The only way out that I can see is them adding some sort of SDI add-on module. Or cancelling the Ninja V and releasing a new Ninja VI that does have SDI. Or releasing a new Ninja VI but removing the raw recording claim.

There's pretty much no other way out of the mess they made when they tried to force a nonstandard HDMI implementation. Well, I guess a third way out would be to introduce their own camera which has HDMI raw. But they're going to have to take one of those three steps.

If I were to bet, I would put my money on some manner of SDI adapter, unless that turns out to be impossible due to hardware limitations.

In any case, no way would I buy a Ninja V for raw recording at this time. If your primary need is.for raw recording, go with the Shogun. Or wait to see what happens with the Ninja if you don't need a raw recorder right now.
Click to expand...

This is pretty much exactly my thoughts. I was pretty excited when I first heard about the Ninja V,
mainly because I have been wishing for a small recorder (not as big as the Odyssey or Inferno) for
some time now. Something easier to use for those of us who are shooting unscripted, fast paced stuff.
Something that would pair nicely with a FS5 or an EVA1. So when they announced it and the fact it would
do ProRes raw, I was close to preordering. But once you dig into the facts.....yeah not so good. Needs
some sort of SDI implementation for it to be worth anything to me, HDMI doesn't help at all currently.
As far as I know, nothing sends raw over HDMI so it seems a bit strange.
 
Barry_Green said:
In my time with the Odyssey 7Q+ and the PIX E5H, I can say that the smaller PIX was vastly preferable for portability. Focusing 4K isn't necessarily so bad on the small screen, as you can mirror the LCD's output on the external monitor and take advantage of the magnified focus assist and peaking, or you can use the magnified focus assist on the external.
Click to expand...

By "mirror the LCD output " are you saying you can get the same feed as the camera's LCD is getting? Which camera is that? On the FS7 at least as far as I know you can only get all that info from the dedicated Sony VF plug. Am I missing something or are the cameras different?
 
Barry_Green said:
The Ninja's got to change. They gave it raw recording capability, but then made it HDMI-only, which cannot now and never will be used for transporting raw data.
Click to expand...
I would not be so sure of that.

Technically there are no problems, only "office people with ties" with licenses in their hands.
 
LennyLevy said:
By "mirror the LCD output " are you saying you can get the same feed as the camera's LCD is getting? Which camera is that? On the FS7 at least as far as I know you can only get all that info from the dedicated Sony VF plug. Am I missing something or are the cameras different?
Click to expand...

Sorry, crossed wires here. I meant EVA1, I didn't check to see this thread was in the Sony section. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Cary Knoop said:
I would not be so sure of that.

Technically there are no problems, only "office people with ties" with licenses in their hands.
Click to expand...

Whether it is theoretically possible, there is no chance that any signatory to the HDMI standard is going to violate that agreement. And I don't think a manufacturer could add an HDMI port without them being signatory to the license. So hey, you can hold your breath waiting if you want... but I wouldn't.
 
Barry_Green said:
Whether it is theoretically possible, there is no chance that any signatory to the HDMI standard is going to violate that agreement. And I don't think a manufacturer could add an HDMI port without them being signatory to the license. So hey, you can hold your breath waiting if you want... but I wouldn't.
Click to expand...
Yes that's where those proprietary things lead to, Display Port could do it, and legally!
 
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Cary Knoop said:
Yes that's were those proprietary things lead to, Display Port could do it, and legally!
Click to expand...
But that's not HDMI. The Ninja doesn't have a DisplayPort, and the cameras don't have it either. They have HDMI ports, and the HDMI standards are very clear. So it isn't gonna happen. Either the Ninja adds SDI support, or ... well, that's about it, really, there isn't any other practical, likely way to do it.
 
sleekmedia said:
Yes it will be a beautiful addition to cameras like the GH5, A6500, or the A7 series of cameras to record 10-bit PRORES HQ which is much better than Sony's 8-bit 4k internal codecs, but it really does nothing other than give you an additional codec if you are using the FS5 or EVA1.
Click to expand...


The Sony A6500 and the Sony A7 series only output 8-bit (422) via HDMI, so the Ninja V is not even useful for those cameras. The Panasonic GH5, however, outputs 10-bit 422 in 4K 60P. The Ninja is useful for that camera.

Btw, the only Sony outputting 10-bit 422 through the HDMI port is the RX0! The Ninja V and the RX0 make for an interesting combo...
 
I wouldn’t say “not useful,” that extra :2 and twice the bitrate do make a difference vs. internal 4k
 
I'm hoping the Ninja V will get an SDI input (hopefully even 12G, but that's probably wishing too much) as I have a Z280 which outputs 3G/6G/12G and 4 channels of audio - with HDMI you can only output 1/2 or 3/4 :(
 
bigmouthmedia said:
I'm hoping the Ninja V will get an SDI input (hopefully even 12G, but that's probably wishing too much) as I have a Z280 which outputs 3G/6G/12G and 4 channels of audio - with HDMI you can only output 1/2 or 3/4 :(
Click to expand...

Why would you care about any of these things if you own a Z280?
The camera can record 4K XAVC-I 10-bit 4:2:2 @ 60 fps internally. There is nothing you'll be able to record to an external recorder that would be superior to that.
Keep the camera simple and put your external recorder money towards something more useful like lighting, audio, or a better tripod.
 
@mcbob, as you're just using these as a monitor, could you get by with a cheap two hundred bucks chinese monitor to save you money on rentals until something like a "Samurai V" gets announced? (which is what I'm waiting for!)
 
Barry_Green said:
Whether it is theoretically possible, there is no chance that any signatory to the HDMI standard is going to violate that agreement. And I don't think a manufacturer could add an HDMI port without them being signatory to the license. So hey, you can hold your breath waiting if you want... but I wouldn't.
Click to expand...
At NAB I spoke with Atomos folks and it seems that ProRes RAW over HDMI is in the works.
 
Cary Knoop said:
At NAB I spoke with Atomos folks and it seems that ProRes RAW over HDMI is in the works.
Click to expand...

Yes, Atomos says that it's in the works, as far as they're concerned. They could even go so far as to actually implement it. But no professional video camera manufacturer that I know of supports it or will support it. The only one I've ever heard of is a Nikon DSLR, and that doesn't output ProRes RAW over HDMI, that outputs raw video over HDMI, which in itself is a violation of the HDMI standard.

Now that Atomos have their SDI module out, it's more likely that they'd enable ProRes RAW support over that, as that is the only connection that professional camcorder manufacturers would support raw output over. However, at NAB, Atomos specifically said that the SDI module wouldn't support ProRes RAW.

So yeah, who knows what will happen. I continue to say that you should never buy any product for what you think it might do in the future, only buy something that supports what you need today. In order for Atomos' plan to work out, they'd need to get a new HDMI standard issued, which the manufacturers can then support. And who knows, maybe they will. But maybe they won't. I wouldn't count that chicken until it actually hatched.
 
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