Shallow Depth of Field

STORYTELLER32

STORYTELLER32

Well-known member
We all know that the DVX has that 'everything in focus' look to it. How about if some of our more experienced shooters start posting suggestions of ways to work around that? (if there is such a thing)

Storyteller32
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

What I have heard can be used to help achieve a shallow depth of field, is pulling the camera as far back as possible and zoming in all the way. This opens the iris more. I have also heard that the more light that is supplied for the scene the better. Hope that helps.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

in essence you just frame as tele as you can with the focus pulled as much as you can , from as close as you can. with the iris as wide open as possible(use NDs if needed to keep from overexposing)

you have to find the proper balance of these things for the given shot/frame so its not always the same, but once you get used to it, it comes second nature..also having an anamorphic lense helps because of its astigmatism, it throws things out of focus faster.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

what about learning to compose shots with a deep focus instead of shooting all the time in tele????
oh.. on the other hand.. orson welles, greg toland... we're not worthy...
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

Thanks for the suggestion. However, what does one do if one is shooting in a confined space and can't help but be close to the actors? THEN how do you get a shallow depth of field while keeping your subject in frame? Is there another way?

Storyteller32
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

Not a whole lot you can do here...

Change set or
Shoot 35mm or
Rotoscope and blur background in post
Rent or purchase a P+S Technik Pro35 adaptor for the DVX100

or

Compose the shot to remnove most of the background so it is not noticeable...

Michael
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

There is one other radical possibility. I am experimenting with an add on lens commonly called a Diopter. These let you achieve much closer focus than you normally could with a telephoto lens. When you use one of these, you lose the ability to reach infinity focus.

B+W has several different lenses rated from +1 to +5, as the numbers increase, you get closer capability. The Canon 500D is another option but I think it is fixed at +2 only.

I am in the middle of finishing one of my priority projects, so I have not done extensive tests yet. Initial results are encouraging.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

wow..this goes back to an old 2-pop post of mine now about how to get the best dof in a confined space. any way its still done using the same methods i described above .. you just sacrifice some more tele to get whatever framing you need in this case. youll probably be in the macro range with the focus, and only about 3 or so feet from the subject but  the dof gets very very shallow using this method, and you can actually get it down to about an inch or less deep if you want.  ive got alot of shots in my current production where the cam to subject distance is about 3-4 feet, and the background is about 3-4 feet away with moderate blur, in short though your not going to squeeze 35mm/hd lense results out of the stout little dvx lense.

using an achromatic diopter is for macro shooting , and allows you to fill the entire frame with a small object at macro range, and may yeild some interesting results, but ive found the resulting dof is paper thin, and not really useable for most bigger subjects. if you have any breakthroughs please let me know. some grabs...yes.. we love grabs.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

I guess thats the same technology that sony uses for their still cameras? I have the 707 and it has and macro button that allows for taking pics of like an ant and get it in focus but have the area as close as an inch behind it out of focus.

0Pp...Lords of Brookyn
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

Three things control depth of field (dof): focal length, focus setting, and aperture.

The longer the lens (telephoto) the less will be in focus. Pulling the camera back and zooming in helps reduce dof.

The closer the lens is focused, the less will be in focus. Focusing farther away increases dof.

The wider the aperture the less will be in focus. Reducing the light intensity and opening the iris to a smaller f/stop number will reduce dof. Using the ND filter or adding additional ND external filters opens the lens aperture. More light stops down the lens increasing dof.

So try to zoom in as much as possible, reduce the light levels, and close focus to decrease dof.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

Good summary, JimK. I am using the diopter to "enhance" the end result of a wide open lens, zoomed long but focused close. In fact, it might allow medium zoom to get good results, but I have not started my controlled experiments yet.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

The only problem with zooming in to decrease the DOF, is that zooming in compresses the scene. I don't mean compression in terms of such things as JPEG compression, but rather that scene elements in the distance appear to come closer to elements in the foreground as you zoom in. This minimizes the sense of depth in a scene. But I guess if you're aiming to blur out everything but the subjects, this wouldn't be nearly as noticeable.

I haven't found a better way to increase DOF either, tho. The diopter idea is interesting tho.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

Jive, you make a very good point here. closing the lens to tele must have couple of justifications *besides* the blind fetish for shallow DOF.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

yes and you can use diopters as well to squish the DOF.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

[quote author=Jive link=board=news;num=1065759027;start=0#12 date=11/06/03 at 03:07:49]The only problem with zooming in to decrease the DOF, is that zooming in compresses the scene.[/quote]

Technically, that is the ONLY reason that zooming in decreases DOF.  If you want to get arcane, aperture is the only factor that affects depth of field (well, plus distance to subject).  Telephoto appears to affect it because it magnifies the amount of out-of-focusness of the background, by bringing the background optically closer (sort of like zooming in on a photoshop document, magnifying it -- makes it bigger, but also softer, whereas if you shrink it down it'll look more in focus).  Also, same reason "28 Days Later" looked so soft in the theater but looks great on DVD -- blowing it up makes it softer.

If you took the same shot at 4.5mm and at 45mm, and then examined the background with a magnifying glass to blow up the background in the 4.5mm shot to be as big as the 45mm shot, you'd find that it's every bit as out of focus as the 45mm.  But because it's optically shrunk in size, by the depth exaggeration of the wide angle, you don't notice the fuzziness and think it looks in focus.

Which is all that matters anyway, is how it looks.

I haven't found a better way to increase DOF either, tho.  The diopter idea is interesting tho.
Click to expand...

Once you open up the iris, and zoom in as far as possible, and get as close to your subject as possible, there is nothing more you can do in-camera.  There are two ways to get a shallower depth of field: the $8000 mini35 (which is $8000 to buy, but then you need lenses in addition) or the $300 SoftScreen (www.softscreen.us).  Other than those, there are no magic tricks.

(well, there is one, but it's lame: shoot your subject against a green screen, and composite in an out-of-focus background, but it always looks fake when done that way...)
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

ICExpo's (barry) screen is pretty cool... very good for interviews I imagine.

The green screen idea sucks but you can if your subject is relatively still key over a mat of the subject then blur out the negative so you get a ruff outline blur.. kinda sketchy but sometimes works well.

Initial tests of the mini35 and the dvx blow as I have heard.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

Lots of experimenting, practice and technique.

Regarding interior shooting. Try everything to achieve the look you want. Hell, even if you are in the hallway looking in.

Open the window and go outside. Be creative.

Experiment with how far you can push, er, pull the Macro element.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

[quote author=Zoomforce link=board=news;num=1065759027;start=0#16 date=11/06/03 at 12:23:51]Initial tests of the mini35 and the dvx blow as I have heard.[/quote]

What specifically have you heard about it? I've only had a chance to play with the mini35 on an XL1. I've always found it hard to imagine how well cameras that can't remove their lense perform with such an attachment (ala PD150 and DVX). I'd hate to be right.
 
Re: Shallow Depth of Field

[quote author=Jive link=board=news;num=1065759027;start=0#18 date=11/06/03 at 15:21:47]
I've always found it hard to imagine how well cameras that can't remove their lense perform with such an attachment (ala PD150 and DVX).  I'd hate to be right.[/quote]

I don't think you are... if you look on the mini35 demo DVD from ZGC, there's one clip on there that's shot with the VX2000/mini35 combo, and it's every bit as sharp as the best of the XL1 footage, and much sharper than some of the XL1 clips.

The removable-lens thing is something of a red herring. Yes, the XL1 can remove its lens, but to use the XL1 with the mini35 you have to add a relay lens. The DVX/VX2000 use the on-camera lens instead of a relay lens. So whether you're using the XL1 with a relay lens, or the DVX with its built-in lens, you're still using additional glass between the camera and the mini35.

I suspect the DVX/mini35 combo will blow the XL1/mini35 combo away, because of two things: 1) the VX2000 version is very competitive with the XL1 version, and 2) the DVX shoots much higher resolution, with no de-interlacing step necessary so you preserve that sharpness all the way through.
 
Another effect to blur out items

Another effect to blur out items

Hey there,

One of the oldest tricks in the book to blur out items instead of green screen is to smudge a little bit of vasoline on the lens.

Of course there are times when this is not a good idea, however, film making is about learning all the tricks and using the best one for a particular shot/situation.
 
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