This is another real newbie question as
Shallow depth of field??
- Thread starter pmk396
- Start date
Vitaliy Kiselev
Carbonite Member
If you want cinematic look you need (sorted according to importance):
0) Good scenery and actors (plus good make-up).
1) Cinematic lighting (so lightling kit must be used).
2) Cinematic camera movement (using dolly, slider, good fluid head, shoulder rig, steadicam etc)
3) Cinematic DOF (any good lens with open aperture, ala 200mm F3, 50mm F1.7 or 20mm F1.7).
I know many good films with very large DOF, but I don't know any good film with bad actors and terrible lightling.
0) Good scenery and actors (plus good make-up).
1) Cinematic lighting (so lightling kit must be used).
2) Cinematic camera movement (using dolly, slider, good fluid head, shoulder rig, steadicam etc)
3) Cinematic DOF (any good lens with open aperture, ala 200mm F3, 50mm F1.7 or 20mm F1.7).
I know many good films with very large DOF, but I don't know any good film with bad actors and terrible lightling.
That is a great quote Vitaliy.
That is a great quote Vitaliy.
Very true :laugh:, well said.
That is a great quote Vitaliy.
Very true :laugh:, well said.
terra1
Well-known member
hey pmk396
it took me a while before i actually had a clue as what "cinematic" actually looked like, and to be honest i still dont :smile: iam a newbie aswell.
i found the real answer was kinda to much for my level of understanding, and since you got a relpy from a pro/king i felt i should give you an answer (might be the wrong answer) from someone like yourself.
i suppose i think of it as...
when filming you can aim the camera left, right, up or down to direct the viewer to what you want them to see (story telling)... and with the addition of DOF of field you can tell the story without moving the camera, you will have seen it loads in films and stuff, i know i had but hadn't released.
iam sure theres a good example that sticks out in my head in the original film predator, the one with big arnold, theres a scene where they are creeping through the jungle...
... the camera is fixed viewing up focused into the tree branches... suddenly a snap of a twig and the camera swiftly comes into focus on the face of the alert poncho (think thats is name, the little guy, who seems to always get hit with logs)
the camera doesnt move but i feel DOF is another way of directing the story, up, down, left, right, zoom in, zoom out, focus near, focus far.
also if you want to tell a personal private story between 2 people speaking DOF can blur out all the background that if in focus can distract the viewers attn from what you want them to "dare i say... focus on"
if youve got a GH1 and want to play with DOF you can buy an adapter on ebay.
search for... 4/3 lens adapter (it will through up loads of different ones)
i use CANON FD fit lenses so the adapter i have is a CANON FD to 4/3's adapter.
search "4/3 to fd" if you plan to use old canon FD LENSES like i do.
old canon fd lenses you wont be ble to use the auto focus and stuff, but half the fun is playing with the camera and seeing what you can make it do, even if it looks good or bad, just think why.
different lenses have different mounts so be carefull.
hope this helps.
cya
it took me a while before i actually had a clue as what "cinematic" actually looked like, and to be honest i still dont :smile: iam a newbie aswell.
i found the real answer was kinda to much for my level of understanding, and since you got a relpy from a pro/king i felt i should give you an answer (might be the wrong answer) from someone like yourself.
i suppose i think of it as...
when filming you can aim the camera left, right, up or down to direct the viewer to what you want them to see (story telling)... and with the addition of DOF of field you can tell the story without moving the camera, you will have seen it loads in films and stuff, i know i had but hadn't released.
iam sure theres a good example that sticks out in my head in the original film predator, the one with big arnold, theres a scene where they are creeping through the jungle...
... the camera is fixed viewing up focused into the tree branches... suddenly a snap of a twig and the camera swiftly comes into focus on the face of the alert poncho (think thats is name, the little guy, who seems to always get hit with logs)
the camera doesnt move but i feel DOF is another way of directing the story, up, down, left, right, zoom in, zoom out, focus near, focus far.
also if you want to tell a personal private story between 2 people speaking DOF can blur out all the background that if in focus can distract the viewers attn from what you want them to "dare i say... focus on"
if youve got a GH1 and want to play with DOF you can buy an adapter on ebay.
search for... 4/3 lens adapter (it will through up loads of different ones)
i use CANON FD fit lenses so the adapter i have is a CANON FD to 4/3's adapter.
search "4/3 to fd" if you plan to use old canon FD LENSES like i do.
old canon fd lenses you wont be ble to use the auto focus and stuff, but half the fun is playing with the camera and seeing what you can make it do, even if it looks good or bad, just think why.
different lenses have different mounts so be carefull.
hope this helps.
cya
terra1
Well-known member
the GH1 is pretty scary at first PMK396... as are all the scary guys in the forums :smile:
dont feel down that you dont get what the "big boys" say, i dont half the time, and i bet they didnt once aswell :smile:
get outside while its still ok weather and have a good play about with it, ul start to find your way :smile:
example:
ive been using adobe photoshop for 10 years (work and play)
theres loads of different ways to do the same thing within it, and loads of different people who use different terminology and steps that confuse things, everyones got there way...
like frank sinatra says... i did it myyyyy wayyyyyy! and it worked :smile:
check out vimeo.com, search GH1 under each video after watching it, lots of people ask questions, i found this a really good help to observe. plus the uploader often lists his settings, shutter speeds, aperture, iso, film mode.
dont feel down that you dont get what the "big boys" say, i dont half the time, and i bet they didnt once aswell :smile:
get outside while its still ok weather and have a good play about with it, ul start to find your way :smile:
example:
ive been using adobe photoshop for 10 years (work and play)
theres loads of different ways to do the same thing within it, and loads of different people who use different terminology and steps that confuse things, everyones got there way...
like frank sinatra says... i did it myyyyy wayyyyyy! and it worked :smile:
check out vimeo.com, search GH1 under each video after watching it, lots of people ask questions, i found this a really good help to observe. plus the uploader often lists his settings, shutter speeds, aperture, iso, film mode.
stoneinapond
Veteran
Read, read, read. Shoot, shoot, shoot. Study your footage.
Repeat.
Repeat as many times as necessary.
Remember, its only digital information. You aren't burning through expensive film.
Shoot and look. Read.
DOF is a function of aperture. Choice of aperture is affected by shutter speed and ISO.
Master the relationship of those three and you'll be golden. (Hint, shutter speed in video should mostly remain fixed.)
majikfraug
Well-known member
1. If you are using zoom lenses, use the telephoto end, rather than the wide end for the shallowest DOF. That is, zoom in all the way, then move away from your subject until you have the framing you want. With primes, the higher the number, the shallower the DOF, so a 150mm lens will have a shallower DOF than a 50mm.
2. Open the aperture/iris up as much as possible. The more open it is, the more light comes in so you'll have to decrease the ISO or use Neutral Density (ND) filters to avoid blasting out your image. Therefor, get/use lenses that are very "fast", ie: f1.8 will give you a shallower DOF then f5.6 --I have a 50mm 1.4 that when fully open has an area of "in focus" that is only a couple inches deep.
3. Move the subject closer to the camera and further from the background. The closer an object is to the camera when it is focused on, the narrower the area of focus. In other words: two people two feet apart might both be in focus if they are 50 ft (and 52ft, respectively) from the camera, but if one is 4ft and the other 6ft away, only one of them might be in focus at a time.
Hope that helps. I tried to write in "newbie" terminology as much as possible
Paul Hudson
Vacuum Tube Member
Pacing!
Just from the replies, I'm guessing that the kit lens for GH1 wouldn't be ideal for acheiving the shallow D.O.P taking into account that the f-stop goes over f/5 or f/5.5 when the lens to zoomed fully to the 140mm length and having the lens zoomed at that length can be very difficult in a small room. I suppose it'd be ok for the close-ups though.
thisisapocalypse
Well-known member
Absolutely correct. A good 50mm f/1.8 or faster is a good place to start with your first fast prime. Canon FDs are good, Canon FD "L" lenses are *great* Olympus OM lenses are very very good, Nikon lenses are good (personal preference, I've never liked Nikon lenses that much - although they do have a nice look on the GH1), and Zeiss lenses are *great* (careful, I'm *not* talking about Zeiss "Jena" lenses - yes there are some good ones (35mm f/2.4 Flek) but they aren't the same as the real deal. Really modern lenses (like the many of the newer Eos "L" series) can be too contrasty, too sharp for narrative work. I've got an awesome 80-200 f/2.8 EOS lens (the magic drainpipe) - that's awesome for photography, tack sharp, awesome contrast - and yet it's too much for narrative work on the GH1.
I say this all the time, but don't overlook Zeiss lenses in Contax/Yashica mount or in Rollei QBM mount - a 50mm f/1.8 in either mount will run you less than $200, and a 50mm f/1.4 will run you $200-300. Rollei mount versions are less expensive and as good as the Contax counterparts. A new Zeiss ZF/ZE 50mm f/1.4 will run you $700+ so a C/Y or Rollei mount version for less which optically, is nearly identical, is a good way to go. The newer Zeiss lenses do have better flare resistance, but you can work around that. The older ones are also slightly less contrasty and that is not a bad thing with the GH1 if you are doing narrative work (which I assume you are since you're talking about a cinematic look).
Here's some shots I've done with a Zeiss 50mm f/1.4 - all wide open.
Some will tell you there's no reason to go all the way for really great lenses on the GH1 - it may be true that a great lens on the GH1 may not out-resolve in terms of pure resolution a lesser lens, but an image is way more than just its resolution - the way it renders color, bokeh, microcontrast, overall contrast, distortion, chromatic abberation, coma, wide-open performance, etc. etc. etc. all make a difference and there's nothing else in the world that's like shooting on Zeiss lenses. They are special and worth the money.
Another great lens on the GH1 is the Samyang made 85mm f/1.4 - available in Nikon and EOS mounts - fully manual, you can pick it up for about $300 and it's a fabulous lens wide open and it looks great on the GH1 - it's wide open performance is comparable to the 85mm f/1.2 L and the Zeiss 85mm f/1.4 at 1/4 the price (note I did say *comparable* - it's not better than the other two lenses but it's very, very close and it has a little less contrast which makes it a nice choice on the GH1 for narrative work).
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thisisapocalypse
Well-known member
And all that said, good talent and a good script is still light-years more important than how shallow your DOF. Get all that PLUS good cinematography and then you're in another league.