Shaggy Sheep Story

[Kholi]

The dolly 'lean' - I think it is possible to pull off if you can live with fixing the focus and chopping the start and stop from the take

Hence an interest in the GH1 AF.. Id love to see how it handles a dolly zoom in of 50cm on a slider

S

the GH-1 Auto Focus could work, but I don't know if it's fast enough.

Also, that move was'nt planned. I'm actually pretty confident that if it was planned I could get it in the first two or three tries, while manually focusing with my hand on the lens.

I should really do some tests, though. You've now got me interested in really pursuing a workable fully handheld situation.

 

[Daniel L.]

Here is how my grips and follow focus are setup on my shoulder mount.

The grip tilted like this makes pulling focus really easy. Everything is in quick reach. My shoulder support counter weight is a big battery pack that powers the camera and LCD monitor. I move the battery pack back and forth on a set of Zacuto rods to set balance for either shoulder and tripod. Gets perfect balance on both, everything just glides.

I'm very happy with the configuration.

Edit.. I just noticed the grip on the left is reversed. Mine is at an angle forward pointing down.

 

[morgan_moore]

Absolutely. I can move a decent sized RED rig on my shoulder and never have to worry about getting smooth movement. It all comes down to size.

What sort of video/imagery would you like to see from the Gunstock/Gun Butt sort of setup that would tell you if it works properly or not? I'd be willing to try some out and post the results.

I would like to see static shots or motivated moves

- a talking head

-talking head pan down to something in hands and then pans back to head

-pan from sign to building maybe

- lock off, car pulls up, person gets out of car, camera tilts or raises to sustain headroom

that sort of thing..

S

 

[Kholi]

I would like to see static shots or motivated moves

- a talking head

-talking head pan down to something in hands and then pans back to head

-pan from sign to building maybe

- lock off, car pulls up, person gets out of car, camera tilts or raises to sustain headroom

that sort of thing..

S

http://www.vimeo.com/1093520

If I re-did something like this with one of the cameras (GH-1 or MKii) would that suffice as a test?

This was done with no tripod, no follow focus. Just my hand on the Zeiss ZF lens and me either sitting or standing. Not exactly a full handheld situation but if these are the sorts of shots then I'll absolutely construct something like it.

 

[morgan_moore]

Here is how my grips and follow focus are setup on my shoulder mount.

The grip tilted like this makes pulling focus really easy. Everything is in quick reach. My shoulder support counter weight is a big battery pack that powers the camera and LCD monitor. I move the battery pack back and forth on a set of Zacuto rods to set balance for either shoulder and tripod. Gets perfect balance on both, everything just glides.

Dan

That looks more intelligent than the zacuto promos, methinks the best configuration I could come up with - my concern that the handles are not wide enough apart to control horizon

is that a RR FF ?

you pull with your first finger or lose grip ??

Do you have some footage of some planned moves..

S

 

[Kholi]

Here is how my grips and follow focus are setup on my shoulder mount.

The grip tilted like this makes pulling focus really easy. Everything is in quick reach. My shoulder support counter weight is a big battery pack that powers the camera and LCD monitor. I move the battery pack back and forth on a set of Zacuto rods to set balance for either shoulder and tripod. Gets perfect balance on both, everything just glides.

I'm very happy with the configuration.

Edit.. I just noticed the grip on the left is reversed. Mine is at an angle forward pointing down.

I still look sideways when I see this rig. Here's what I've been using since the D90 came out:

The difference is that the one I'm using adds more weight (good), and has much more mobility than the Redrock VDSLR 2.0 setup. I actually own the VDSLR2.0 setup and haven't really used it.

Morgan's right about the spacing. Needs to be pretty decent.

here's what I found doesn't work with this setup, though: pulling focus on the fly.

Composition and moving is fine, but once you take your hand off of the handle it flops and your shot is gone.

So I turned those handles into my chest or gut instead and use it as the Gun-Butt method, one hand on the right side of the camera, one hand on the left beneath the lens so my fingers can roll the focus ring.

 

[morgan_moore]

http://www.vimeo.com/1093520

If I re-did something like this with one of the cameras (GH-1 or MKii) would that suffice as a test?

This was done with no tripod, no follow focus. Just my hand on the Zeiss ZF lens and me either sitting or standing. Not exactly a full handheld situation but if these are the sorts of shots then I'll absolutely construct something like it.

Yeah I like that footage the moves are motivated but its still not really cinema (no disrespect)

Could you have pleased the client better with 'steady shot' and AF

I do have an EX1 that has..steadishot, no jello, AF, shot transition, a good zoom, mass , nice smooth focus travel and lots of DOF and of course great sound and no 50hz light issues

Maybe it is the correct tool - lets face it those sony designers are not actually stupid?

I hope not

ps I have been looking forward to a thread that actually focusses on really using a 5d etc

S

 

[Kholi]

Yeah I like that footage the moves are motivated but its still not really cinema (no disrespect)

Could you have pleased the client better with 'steady shot' and AF

I do have an EX1 that has..steadishot, no jello, AF, shot transition, a good zoom, mass for hanholding, nice focus travel and lots of DOF and of course great sound and no 50hz light issues

Maybe it is the correct tool ?

I hope not

S

Definitely not Cinema. It was commercial work (infomercial actually). Pretty much what the director was looking for to sell the product.

But I wouldn't reckon you were looking for something that says "cinema" with this kind of application. I thought you were looking for documentary flavored (like your sheep story) or commercial application.

None of that looks like actual "cinema' or "movies" to me, but BBC documentary stuff.

You wouldn't really get into this kind of camera action unless you were shooting a documentary style "film" so it's only slightly moot when applied to that realm.

I love handheld work, but for actual cinematic work I reign it in and it's much more structure and withheld.

But for doc-style and commercial (selling) you could use the MKii or GH-1 without Auto Focus. The responsibility lies with the operator being able to pull focus at the same time as moving the camera.

But I'm going to try to structure something like this to see how well it works with the Gh-1.

 

[Kholi]

LoL and yeah, Morgan, the EX-1 is a REAL video camera. Designed for the application so you know... technically it IS the right tool.

But I'm confident that the VDSLR can work for more than locked down applications.

 

[Daniel L.]

Dan

That looks more intelligent than the zacuto promos, methinks the best configuration I could come up with - my concern that the handles are not wide enough apart to control horizon

is that a RR FF ?

you pull with your first finger or lose grip ??

Do you have some footage of some planned moves..

S

That's a redrock photo so I'm sure it's a redrock FF. I'm Using the FF from a SGPro kit.

The grip rests on my palm. My thumb, index finger, and middle finger make contact with the FF wheel. Usually my thumb is idle as a backup just in case I need an extra turn.

The external HDMI monitor on an arm makes focusing and framing a breeze.

 

[morgan_moore]

Definitely not Cinema. It was commercial work (infomercial actually). Pretty much what the director was looking for to sell the product.

But I wouldn't reckon you were looking for something that says "cinema" with this kind of application. I thought you were looking for documentary flavored (like your sheep story) or commercial application.

None of that looks like actual "cinema' or "movies" to me, but BBC documentary stuff.

You wouldn't really get into this kind of camera action unless you were shooting a documentary style "film" so it's only slightly moot when applied to that realm.

I love handheld work, but for actual cinematic work I reign it in and it's much more structure and withheld.

But for doc-style and commercial (selling) you could use the MKii or GH-1 without Auto Focus. The responsibility lies with the operator being able to pull focus at the same time as moving the camera.

But I'm going to try to structure something like this to see how well it works with the Gh-1.

Well it doesnt look BBC doco because of the DOF and focus pulls and small dolly across the cups, which give it a cinematic appearance - to me cinema moves by moving the camera and catching the eye with focus, good BBC doco 'moves' are often tripod based 'false' moves like hiding a zoom in a pan rarely does a doco move involve physical movement of the camera beyond, HH leans or twists or tripod based pans and tilts

The relationship between Bond and his gun is no different from girl and tape mesure so content is not an issue

So I would therefore class it as poorly exectued cinema (again no disrespect - we are trying to do what cinema uses tape, pullers, and dollies and $50k fluid heads for)

The crux of the question maybe is .. which is better ?, great video or bad cinema

and can the 5d be used for cheap OK cinema

ps your images are pass protected !

S

 

[Kholi]

Haha I guess that's just a general matter of opinion. The camera itself, to me, doesn't really have to do with anything versus (in order of importance as what will establish a cinematic view versus a commercial-- for sale-- or documentary property):

1. Lighting
2. Frame Composition
3. Pacing
4. Content

That's what defines Cinema to me. Not Depth of Field. But of course, everyone has differing opinions which is great. There are several naked HVX200 feature films that look like movies, and there are several Adapter helmed movies that look like Documentary styled pieces.

The Bourne Identity looks like a Documentary, it does not look like traditional Cinema. It's defined as Cinema because it has a fictional narrative, but if it were real it'd be a documentary.

It's an interesting conversation, though, because more people are moving toward a handheld style that screams documentary and using it in situations where they're not applicable.

The most cinematic footage I've seen from the 5D was the Mystery Feature movie trailer by which name I cannot recall. It looked like a "movie", not a documentary.

Also, would you look at a Beer Commercial or Heinz commercial and classify it as Cinema? They've been using Film for ages, DOF etc. So have infomercials, etc etc.

DOF and such isn't new to anything that we're doing, it's in everything we've viewed (at least stateside) since the dawn of cinema. Only difference is that our forefathers used to FIGHT for deep focused imagery (see: THE THIN MAN) versus shallow focused cinematography.

But can the 5D be used for cheap cinema? Absolutely. any camera can. The camera does not make the movie, cinematography does.

 

[Kholi]

By the way, I'm NOT offended by any comments on my footage. Please don't take it that way. I know, personally, that the content was aimed at "sale" not "cinema" so I accomplished what I was paid to do.

However, there are vast distinctions between several facets of video and film production, and DOF does not determine which is which by any means.

 

[morgan_moore]

Indeed

I think we are discussing definitions

IMO there are three schools of shooting

- One I would think is defined by a proper dolly zoom with a narrow dof held on a moving subject

cinema?

The next is the tripod based pan/zoom style where focus is of less concern

proper doco?

The third is the people who dont care (bourne/you tube)

video?

Call them A B and C if you want

Any method can be used for art, commerce advertising whatever

Im just trying to make A look better than B and my 5d look better than EX1

I think it is not easy and that is not widely accepted due to the lack of actual material being shot with DSLRs

Back to the methodology..

S

 

[Daniel L.]

Respectfully, I have to disagree. Just like lighting, composition, and etc are important tools used to tell a story so is control over depth of field.

 

[Kholi]

Agreed, Morgan. It's all subjective anyway.

And you don't REALLY have to try hard to make the MKii look batter than the EX-1. Honestly, even at SD size what I saw looked better than the EX-1 by miles.

What needs to be realized is that it's just going to take practice, practice, practice.

I do NOT think that traditional methods will work with these cameras unless they're weighted down, which takes that something special out of the camera in general.

This application honestly demands a bit more than just "throw gadgets at it", not that it's what you're doing but just a general message to the community. I may sound sentimental, but I really think that you just have to become intimate with your setup. And by that (you perverts, lol) I mean trying to find out how to make it an extension of yourself and how YOUR body reacts to this or that, not a universal idea that it should be one way.

I've had a lot of time with the D90 and now the GH-1 and I've switched my handheld method several times. I've learned that my arms don't like to be up too high, and certainly not on the same level as each other without holding onto something.

So I adjusted to what my body wanted instead.

Let me see what I can cook up as far as a controlled setup.

 

[Kholi]

Respectfully, I have to disagree. Just like lighting, composition, and etc are important tools used to tell a story so is control over depth of field.

That's fine. Depth of Field is great, I just don't think it's on the high list as far as really going to produce narrative material. There have been several several examples of great narrative content minus control over depth of field for over a century of filmmaking.

If you want to go somewhere in the middle, S16's FOV and DOF characteristics are nowhere near that of the MKii, but look at what it's done.

I'll go as far as to point out Danny Boyle's incredible body of work, 28 Days Later utilizing XL Video cameras and his most recent success Slumdog Millionaire utilizing a 2/3" sensor based SI-2K camera for most of it's image acquisition.

It's another great tool, but DOF doesn't actually mean "Cinema".

But again, it's subjective and differing opinions are absolutely necessary. So I won't go any further into this subject.

 

[morgan_moore]

.. there are vast distinctions between several facets of video and film production, and DOF does not determine which is which by any means.

DOF does however define the 5d because it has so little of it

Lack of AF defines the 5d because if you are into filling the frame you will have to manually pull with the smallest move of subject or camera (even at 5.6 or 8)

Assuming the intent is basic technical competentce of sharp focus and shot stability - irrelvant of content - mastery of the 5d is no easy matter and therefore needs discussing as we are doing..

S

 

[Kholi]

DOF does however define the 5d because it has so little of it

Lack of AF defines the 5d because if you are into filling the frame you will have to manually pull with the smallest move of subject or camera (even at 5.6 or 8)

Assuming the intent is basic technical competentce of sharp focus and shot stability - irrelvant of content - mastery of the 5d is no easy matter and therefore needs discussing as we are doing..

S

Oops, sorry. I think we got our lines crossed. I AGREE, that you need to know how to master focus control on any of these cameras. I was only saying that as far as video and film application goes, DOF is something more un-important than most of us make it out to be. At least to me.

But MASTERING the focus pull and hitting marks is an absolute. One that will probably come through practice more-so than anything. Learning lenses with your fingers and memory, that sort of thing

 

[Daniel L.]

If you want to go somewhere in the middle, S16's FOV and DOF characteristics are nowhere near that of the MKii, but look at what it's done.

I'll go as far as to point out Danny Boyle's incredible body of work, 28 Days Later utilizing XL Video cameras and his most recent success Slumdog Millionaire utilizing a 2/3" sensor based SI-2K camera for most of it's image acquisition.

You're right, I suppose everything in this field is subjective. For example, some like 30p cinema others like 24p.

However, 28 days later was shot with a 35mm adapters, 2/3" sensor is about the same as 16mm, and 16mm is by many considered to be the minimum size for a professional format. This only demonstrates the importance of DoF to many cinematographers.