HPX250: Settings for convention

Frizzle Fry

Frizzle Fry

Well-known member
Hi all, I'll be shooting an expo with my new HPX250. In the past I've shot this same expo in 1080/24p on the HMC40 and DVX100A. I'm now wondering if 24p is really appropriate for such an event. Should it be filmic or should it look live? I'm thinking about settling on 1080/30PN as a nice middle ground. Somewhat filmic but better for faster pans. Destination will be mostly web, but probably some DVD as well. No PAL. Is 1080 overkill?

Any other comments about scene file settings, gamma, color matrix would be welcome. I do know for sure that 1/60th shutter is a must under the mixed lighting. Other than that, I know many are proponents of getting your look in-camera, but if I want to experiment in post would it be best to shoot as flat as possible? I think Barry said in his book that Cine-Like-V is good for that. I don't have the book handy right now though.
 
I would not shoot a live event at 24p unless the client specifically requested that.

If it's for the web, I wouldn't want to use 60i either.

So that leaves you with 30p, or with 720/60p.

The question is -- what do you want it to look like? If you want a film-ish feel (which can be disconcerting for a live event) then yeah, 1080/30p is a possibility. If you want it to look "live", I'd go for 720/60p.

Cine-V is not the flattest gamma; that's cine-D. Cine-V is good for a filmish gamma that is intended to be viewable as-is; cine-D is usually used as the starting point for footage that will be graded.
 
AVC-I 1080/30Pn is my personal fav simply because the extra 6 frames over 24pN helps to minimize jerkiness during faster pan and dolly shots. And my shooting style certainly contains a lot of those fast camera movements that 24pN can't handle. Hate having to slow down the pans or dollies. 1080p/60i is just too news looking for me but it's the only 1080 format that DRS will work on the HPX-250. DRS is a life saver for me on many shoot scenarios. Can't imagine not being able to use it. It's just too bad that I can't use it on 1080/ 24 or 30pN. 720/60p won't work on AVC-I 100 but only DVCPRO HD but DRS will work. However, mixing 720/60p to 1080/30PN is another challenge itself in most NLE apps. Argh.

With 4K cameras slowly penetrating the market and the new h.265 codec to be released, 1080p is not overkill. And a 4 Tb SATA Seagate drive is now within $200 mark (reduced fr. $400 just within last 8 months), it's a ripe time to stay w/ 1080p and not worry about storage expense. I'd stick to one frame rate and not mix and match 24pN, 30pN, and 60i.
 
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lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com said:
1080p/60i is just too news looking for me but it's the only format that DRS will work on the HPX-250.
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It also works in 720/60.

I know that's an intentional hidden thing fr Panasonic to not hurt their HPX-3100 sales as that 2/3" camera can do DRS in all AVC-I 100 modes.
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Not really, because the AC160, AC130, and AC90 can all do DRS in all modes. It's a limitation of the chipsets in the HPX250 and HPX370.
 
Ah, too fast on your response. I already fixed my post on 720/60p on the hPX-250 as I was trying it out and DRS does work.

I find it very hard to mix and match 720/60p & 1080pN in the same time line during editing and get seamless performance. For example: I have numerous content shot back in 2009 with the HPX170 and HPX2000@720/60p. When I put it in the same sequence with the 1920x1080p footage shot w/ the HPX-250 and higher end models, the 720/60p is simply softer as it has to be scaled up to match the 1920x1080. Final delivery is 1920x1080p. Also, the hassles of having to interpret footage to accommodate the non-square pixel is already a big head ache. Keeping it all unified to the same format makes it so much easier for everything in the post pipeline.

Another concern here is that I don't have any scientific test done to see whether the HPX-250 is at its best by keeping it 1920x1080 natively or have it scale down to 720/60p. Reluctant to shoot anything at 720/60p fearing that I'm not getting the max out of the MOS sensor or some sort of image quality has to suffer to make it compatible at 720/60p. If anybody has some concrete data on this, would love to see it. Too bad can't do an apple to apple comparison w/ the HPX-170 to 250 in 720/60p mode as both cameras are using different lens and perhaps different imaging sensor.

Isn't it true that AVC-I 100 only support 1920x1080?
 
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Cine Gamma to me is a middle ground. It look decent enough for final video w/ out grading. But if I ever need to match it with other scenes, it has that extra latitude left to push it a bit more to match. HD gamma is the least that can be graded. Mostly this is for matching w/ Panasonic 2/3" cams w/ out extensive DSP tweaking. Cine D is definitely heavy grading and looks very flat if it's left as-is. This works well on scenics. But when there's people face in the shot, Cine Gamma subjectively offers the most pleasing look w/ out the need to grade it further. Grading or color correction adds subtle noise and very small artifacts. It's not 100% transparent. Hopefully the new AVC-I Class 200 codec will address this issue. For the most part, AVC-I 100 holds up very well overall and it's cost-effective (relatively speaking). I'm not sure if I can handle the added expense in storage for AVC-I Class 200 codec with thousand hours of footage to edit.

Ah the shutter. I leave it as-is and not use any 180 degree, half, 3/4... I noticed when I turn it on, light intensity decreases and stroboscopic look increases. Leaving it alone seems to work best.

>>gamma, color matrix would be welcome. I do know for sure that 1/60th shutter is a must under the mixed lighting. Other than that, I know many are proponents of getting your look in-camera<<
 
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Thanks guys, your advice is much appreciated.

Barry, I understand not delivering 24p unless it is specifically requested. What about those clients unaware of 24p? Should we just assume they will expect 60p, or do you show them the differences and let them choose? It's good to know of best practices.

The idea of 24/30p being disconcerting is interesting. It's almost like narrow DOF, I suppose – if it's not appropriate it sticks out. You don't really want the camera work to draw attention to itself after all, you want the message/product/etc to communicated. For example, I just watched a commercial for a rather large, local hospital system and it was obvious that the shooter had fallen in love with the dolly move. Those moves are great when done subtly, but these looked more like drive-bys than anything else! The actors were talking to someone who was moving far too quickly to be paying attention to what they were saying. I cringe every time it comes on.

So does 24p or 30p make a live event look as disconcerting as the above example? Surely not, but it seems to me that it's wise to remove any of those distracting factors when the message is important. And when isn't the message important, right?

At this point I'm leaning toward 720/60p. It has the added benefit of smooth slowmo for my product closeup/slider shots. Lonewolf brought up a point I considered: On the HPX250, aside from the inherent resolution differences, does 720 have lower quality in any way compared to 1080? I think Lonewolf was referring to the HPX170's upscaling.

Is there a difference in quality between natively recorded 720 on the HPX250 versus the HPX's 1080 placed on a 1280x720 timeline?

Barry, if you don't mind, shooting an event like this on the HPX250, what are your default settings?
 
I remember someone saying that the camera shoots in 1080 and down converts if you go to 720 (its a really early thread here somewhere). So I think (not sure) 1080 is the cleanest then down convert to 720 in your NLE. However for DVD and most web content no one except yourself mostly will notice, so just shoot in 720@60. If going to DVD just make sure to correctly export your footage or it will look really poor (its a multi step process).
 
Thanks Rzr, I am really thinking 720/60p is the way to go.

I'm using FCPX for outputting to DVD, and there really aren't any options so I assume it's using optimal settings. Anything specific I should be looking out for?
 
Here is the thread, not sure about FCPX. I just switched to Adobe from FCP. Read over the thread and check out the videos and you will see what I mean.
 
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