Sennheiser Evolution Wireless Digital (EW-DP)

N

norway

Well-known member

I have been using the EW100s since forever, but this looks like an exciting replacement, especially the quick frequency setup time and low latency.

A question for the audio experts here from a novice: I am going to assume that the EW-DP is a 24-bit system since the dynamic range is about 134 dB. In terms of future-proofing, will we ever see a wireless lavalier system from Sennheiser that incorporates all the benefits of 32-bit floating point audio?

https://en-de.sennheiser.com/newsroom/sennheiser-evolution-wireless-digital-ew-dp#
 
Many wireless transmitter preamps have limiters that prevents the input stage (and the A/D converter) from clipping, which is more important IMHO than digital overflow in a transmitter.
 
norway said:
In this context, how does the Zoom F2 (with floating point audio) fit into the equation? (I am aware it is not a TX/RX solution.)
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Devices like the F2 are really marketed to amateurs and hobbyists, and then people like wedding videographers who never have sound mixers on their crew. It’s a convenient solution because you can “set it and forget it”, and 32-bit float will keep peaks and dips from being an issue. The Bluetooth version also offers time code. HOWEVER, the big risk with a solution like that is the complete lack of confidence monitoring. Yeah, you can plant it on talent, let it roll, and think you’re just going to worry about it later, but… what if the lav cable develops a short? What if you buried the lav in wardrobe and the adhesive mount got jostled and is now rubbing on everything? What if the battery was faulty and the device powered down before the end of the scene (or the shoot, if you decide just to let it keep rolling)? These are all issues you won’t even know are issues until it’s too late.

32-bit float also requires extra work in post in order to perform level recovery, and if you don’t have software that can handle it, you won’t have a good time trying to use what you’ve recorded.

R.E. the new Sennheiser systems, I’m interested to see what they actually end up being able to do out in the real world. On first glance, it seems like they almost got there, but may have missed the boat on a few things. The physical design is a really weird choice, though it does offer top-read screen instead of front-read. It’s quite obvious that they’re really marketing to people who want to pop these receivers on their cameras, and not at all to the bag-mixing crowd.

Also interesting that they actually included two real antennae, as opposed to the G3/G4 systems that use the audio output cable as a second antenna for diversity reception. The antennae on the EW-DP are supposedly detachable, but I’m curious what the connection is. None of the specs I’ve seen offer any clarity on that, but I would hope that they’re SMA.
 
I am not aware of any digital Tx (transmitter) or Tx/Recorder combo that supports FP32. Many of Zaxcom's products have a 'NeverClip' process, but that is not a floating point A/D converter AFAIK.
Otherwise, regarding recorders, FP32 can come in handy, even for hands-on-faders PSMs. However as Alex stated, most NLEs and low/no cost DAWs do not support FP32.
 
32 bit isn't for "amateurs and hobbyists". For unattended live video work where you don't have an audio guy it can save the day. I combine the Zoom F3 it with a wireless transmitter to get the best of both worlds. If anything clips I can go back the 32 bit recording. I just filmed a memorial day parade with a friend. In a pinch, he lav miced the loud speaker for after the parade speeches with multiple presenters. Guess what happened? The levels were set wrong on the transmitter and it got over modulated. The audio is useless. F3 would have saved the day.

Doing a sit down interview then yes no need for 32bit. Run a boom mic with the lav and do a sound check. Never had an issue. But for run and gun stuff 32 bit is very useful.

Zoom does make F2 but I believe it's a recorder only not a wireless. In addition it's audio quality isn't great and has many short comings that I wouldn't recommend it. Given the choice I'd rather monitor my audio than have 32 bit for controlled situations.
 
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Rick R said:
Many wireless transmitter preamps have limiters that prevents the input stage (and the A/D converter) from clipping, which is more important IMHO than digital overflow in a transmitter.
Click to expand...

Peter C. said:
For unattended live video work where you don't have an audio guy it can save the day. I combine the Zoom F3 it with a wireless transmitter to get the best of both worlds. If anything clips I can go back the 32 bit recording.
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I am trying to reconcile the above... if the TX units have limiters, is there still value in recording in 32 bits on the F3?
 
norway said:
I am trying to reconcile the above... if the TX units have limiters, is there still value in recording in 32 bits on the F3?
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Limiters are only designed to catch brief unexpected peaks. For example you are interviewing someone and they laugh loudly. If you use a wireless transmitter to send a board feed to the camera and the transmitter input level is set to mic instead of line level, a limiter won't save you, everything will be over modulated. In another common situation you do a level check but the speaker talks much louder, you're done. In many live situations you can't run up on stage and change the transmitter settings. It's game over.
 
Peter C. said:
Limiters are only designed to catch brief unexpected peaks. For example you are interviewing someone and they laugh loudly. If you use a wireless transmitter to send a board feed to the camera and the transmitter input level is set to mic instead of line level, a limiter won't save you, everything will be over modulated. In another common situation you do a level check but the speaker talks much louder, you're done. In many live situations you can't run up on stage and change the transmitter settings. It's game over.
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I guess that brings me to another topic... when will ENG and cinema cameras get floating point audio? :cheesy:
 
norway said:
I guess that brings me to another topic... when will ENG and cinema cameras get floating point audio? :cheesy:
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I don't think 32bit is a highly desired feature sought after by professionals. ENG operators will generally be monitoring their audio and using the same setup. In addition if its being broadcast live the levels need to be set correct and even when it's not the video should be ready to go straight out of camera due to fast turn around. Eng like most camcorders have reached a point that their development is complete.
 
Peter C. said:
I don't think 32bit is a highly desired feature sought after by professionals. ENG operators will generally be monitoring their audio and using the same setup. In addition if its being broadcast live the levels need to be set correct and even when it's not the video should be ready to go straight out of camera due to fast turn around. Eng like most camcorders have reached a point that their development is complete.
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Again, isn't there a case to be made for solo operators, documentary work etc.?
 
Rick R said:
I am not aware of any digital Tx (transmitter) or Tx/Recorder combo that supports FP32. Many of Zaxcom's products have a 'NeverClip' process, but that is not a floating point A/D converter AFAIK.
Otherwise, regarding recorders, FP32 can come in handy, even for hands-on-faders PSMs. However as Alex stated, most NLEs and low/no cost DAWs do not support FP32.
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It's all about gain staging, amirite?

But don't NLEs now support 32 bit float?

Most major DAWs and video apps now support 32-bit float audio, including the latest versions of the free Audacity DAW, Avid’s Pro Tools, Adobe Premiere Pro, DaVinci Resolve, Cubase and Apple’s GarageBand, Logic Pro, iMovie and Final Cut Pro.
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https://www.broadcastbeat.com/chang...major DAWs and video,iMovie and Final Cut Pro.

Looking elsewhere, I also see people saying that if you add a gain effect to a 32 bit float audio file in FCPX rather than adjusting gain directly on the track, it will properly manipulate the 32 bit float file the same way as it does in their audio program of choice.

https://fcp.co/forum/4-final-cut-pro-x-fcpx/30910-32-bit-floating-point-audio-files-in-fcpx-10-4-7
 
Peter C. said:
32 bit isn't for "amateurs and hobbyists".
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If you re-read my post, you’ll notice that I did not say this about 32-bit float. I said it about the Zoom F2. As you say:

Peter C. said:
Zoom does make F2 but I believe it's a recorder only not a wireless. In addition it's audio quality isn't great and has many short comings that I wouldn't recommend it.
Click to expand...

32-bit float itself has an appropriate place. For SFX recording and classical music recording, 32-bit is very helpful. And yes, for situations where videographers are doing their own sound and don’t have anyone there to focus on it, 32-bit float recorders can be helpful. But for dialog for film and TV, with a proper sound department, it is not needed. 24-bit 48kHz is still the standard.

And there’s really no comparison with having a skilled sound mixer on the crew.
 
Alex H. said:
If you re-read my post, you’ll notice that I did not say this about 32-bit float. I said it about the Zoom F2. As you say:



32-bit float itself has an appropriate place. For SFX recording and classical music recording, 32-bit is very helpful. And yes, for situations where videographers are doing their own sound and don’t have anyone there to focus on it, 32-bit float recorders can be helpful. But for dialog for film and TV, with a proper sound department, it is not needed. 24-bit 48kHz is still the standard.

And there’s really no comparison with having a skilled sound mixer on the crew.
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My bad. Sounds like were in agreement the F2 is junk and most applications don't need 32 bit float but for my situation it's very helpful. I often need to record board feeds and stage mics without the luxury of knowing what the proper levels should be until the performance starts. For sit down interviews I don't have a need for it.
 
norway said:
Again, isn't there a case to be made for solo operators, documentary work etc.?
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Yes, very much so. I'm currently shooting an observational documentary and I'm recording Binaural and Ambisonic audio for a stereo binaural finish. I was filming one location as sunrise and there was a morning chorus in full swing, I set the levels appropriately with enough headroom or so I thought and then a bird lands in the tree right next to my mic, starts singing turned up to 11, immediately clips and sends square waves into my right ear which felt like an insect burrowing into it. 32 bits would've saved this recording and many others like it.

It has been a while since I used an ENG camera so I don't know how good their pre amps are these days but they were never special when I was using them. Would 32 bits really be much value to relative average quality audio recording? I think an external 32 bit recorder is probably a better bet.

I have learned a great deal from some incredible generous individuals in the field recording community and their most prized hand held recorders are still the Sony D100. Many years out of manufacture and going for upwards of $1500 on Ebay this is still the gold standard in the field recording community, it has great onboard mics, quiet pre amps but it's just 24 bits. Sony seems oblivious to people crying out for new ones.

The Zoom F3 and F6 both 32 bit are highly regarded too but I find them a challenge to work with on a camera as a lone shooter. I have a Sony A10 which is OK that is small enough to mount on the cam but not in the same league as the D100 unfortunately also 24 bit.

Here's a useful list of audio recorder self noise measurements. Unsurprisingly Sound Devices are at the top! Recorder Tests - Avisoft Bioacoustics

Ask anyone in the field recording community what they want most and it's a 32 bit Sony D100. That would do me great right now.
 
AmbiSonde said:
Yes, very much so. I'm currently shooting an observational documentary and I'm recording Binaural and Ambisonic audio for a stereo binaural finish. I was filming one location as sunrise and there was a morning chorus in full swing, I set the levels appropriately with enough headroom or so I thought and then a bird lands in the tree right next to my mic, starts singing turned up to 11, immediately clips and sends square waves into my right ear which felt like an insect burrowing into it. 32 bits would've saved this recording and many others like it.
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No egrets, eh?
 
norway said:

TASCAM DR-10L PRO review
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Wow Tascam finally updated it. This is one of my favorite recorders. I have two.
32bit float is a nice addition although I've never even needed use the safety track.
My only issue is the lav mic cable is stiff and if not properly secured will transmit handling noise. I plan to soldier on a better lav mic, just haven't gotten around to it.
 
Semi-pro recorders and wireless Txs usually include a low-quality mic, for instance. I think the Tascam DR-10 recorder uses the same wiring configuration as the Sennheiser 100 series body pack Tx, so a good quality mic wired for a Sennheiser should work.
 
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