Sennheiser Cracks Down on Counterfeits

[TERRA Operative]

When I was in the R&D department of a company designing and making automation controls for HVAC, we were deciding on parts based on price differences of a few cents. As it works down the chain with high volume production and the addition of costs, those few cents can translate to a few hundred dollars.

 

[John Willett]

Surely that's the whole point? - it's been a very long time since the first '$50 million' mic came off the line - since then, it's all been pretty much the same thing, with tweaks here, and refinements there. Have there been any *really* radical and innovative developments in recent decades?

Take a 'bread & butter' mic like the ME66 - it's what?, more than 15 years since that mic was first made?, it's hardly stuffed with esoteric tehnology - yet Sennheiser still want between £350 -£400 for an Me66/K6 combo.

I'd be amazed if that mic cost more than £10 to make and ship.

Says someone who obviously knows nothing at all about design and manufacture and obviously nothing about microphones as well. :thumbdown

Oh - and the ME66 was first made about 20 years ago, not 15.

 

[Framerate]

Says someone who obviously knows nothing at all about design and manufacture and obviously nothing about microphones as well. :thumbdown

Oh - and the ME66 was first made about 20 years ago, not 15.

Thank you for the invaluable history lesson - so we can add another five years worth of excess profit onto the ME66, then?

No, I'm not a microphone expert - but (perhaps to my credit) neither am I a vain brand fetishist who contemptuously disparages low cost mics because they 'can't possibly' meet my own entirely subjective criteria of what constitutes 'good' sound.

I'm not sure *why* you are so rattled by cheap Chinese mics that produce decent results - but I can imagine that your alarm is shared by the major players.

 

[Alex H.]

Alright, folks. Let's keep this civil and professional. It's starting to get personal, and if it continues the thread will be locked.

 

[Doc Bernard]

Agreed, Alex.

Framerate, no one is slamming inexpensive clones, wherever they are from. What we are concerned with are the "cheap" ones. The one that sound cheap and are almost disposable. Even the ME series mics are panned by some people (though I love them). Each engineer makes there own decision based on their own ears, coupled with talking with other engineers and their experiences.

If those mics are satisfactory for you, no one is going to really twist your arm and try to change your mind. We are just trying to help you learn the lessons we did, many of them the hard way. And every time some one buys one of those cheap "copies", they encourage counterfeiters to continue doing it. Though most people do come to realize the mistake after a while. But the price of the gear is offset by the education they get.

As to the price of an ME66, what would you sell it for if you were the manufacturer? What I would like to do is maybe give you a glimpse behind the curtain of manufacturing so you will understand how it works, and not feel like you are getting ripped off everytime when you buy a higher class/quality piece of gear.

 

[Postmaster]

I

I'd love to know what huge advances have been incorporated in the modern day equivalent of a mic from 20 years ago.

Making good microphones is almost a black art and needs a lot of passion.
I doubt that one of the big companies with they shareholder value orientated boards, their lawyers, there huge production lines, their marketing and PR departments or even the R&D have any clue about that. They are in a mass market, and there is no place for magic.

Really good mics don't come out of a mass assembly line. They are hand made by folks of passion. And since those don´t need all that big apparatus around them, they can be quite affordable. For example, the Peluso R14 Ribbon Microphone is under $650 that blows any Royer, Shure or Audio Technica out of the water.

On Horse Ridge Road in southwestern Virginia, Mary and John Peluso tend to sheep, lambs and two spitting llamas named Dolly and Lori.

But unlike some of their rural neighbors, who may rise before dawn to cast their lines in the local creek, this couple rises early to meticulously assemble microphones by hand. The Pelusos' microphones are modeled after some of the world's legendary mikes, but at a price more affordable for today's musicians.

The Pelusos are part of a boutique microphone-making movement — an effort to inexpensively replicate the look and sound of classic mikes. Peluso microphones have been used to record the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the bluegrass band Blue Highway and the Roanoke Symphony Orchestra, among others.

Read the whole article: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89705610

Frank

 

[John Willett]

Thank you for the invaluable history lesson - so we can add another five years worth of excess profit onto the ME66, then?

What makes you think there is excessive profit?

Just because it costs more than a mic. made by virtually slave labour in China does not mean that the profit is excessive.

Good microphones that are high quality and consistent cost money to make. I do not know of any microphone company that make excessive profits - quality manufacture costs money.

In fact, a microphone that was designed in the days when labour was cheap and technology was expensive actually costs a lot more to make in these days where labour is expensive and technology is cheap. A modern microphone would be designed in such a way that there is a lot more automated manufacturing processes; a microphone designed 20 years ago would have a lot more manual labour required and would cost a lot more to make nowadays compared to when it was originally designed.

No, I'm not a microphone expert - but (perhaps to my credit) neither am I a vain brand fetishist who contemptuously disparages low cost mics because they 'can't possibly' meet my own entirely subjective criteria of what constitutes 'good' sound.

It's obvious that you are no mic. expert - but I am certainly not a "vain brand fetishist"

I'm not sure *why* you are so rattled by cheap Chinese mics that produce decent results - but I can imagine that your alarm is shared by the major players.

What makes you think I am rattled by cheap Chinese mics?

I don't like people who copy and rip-off other peoples intellectual property, but I have no problem at all with cheap Chinese mics.

Some of these Chinese mics. can give quite an acceptable performance at a reasonable price - especially those where the mics are designed abroad and have western QC.

Many Chinese mics have very variable quality - if one breaks the next one you get may sound very different. But you get what you pay for.

Actually your cheap Chinese mic. may actually end up costing more in the long run - many of these cheap mics will last a few years and have zero s/h value. Your 20 year old. mic. by a major manufacturer is likely to be still in production and have a s/h value maybe about double what you originally paid for it.

But just because someone can make a very cheap mic. in China does not mean that a mic. made with exacting standards in Europe or the USA is making excessive profits and it's that, very incorrect, assertion of yours that makes me angry.

 

[Framerate]

Agreed, Alex.

Framerate, no one is slamming inexpensive clones, wherever they are from. What we are concerned with are the "cheap" ones. The one that sound cheap and are almost disposable. Even the ME series mics are panned by some people (though I love them). Each engineer makes there own decision based on their own ears, coupled with talking with other engineers and their experiences.

If those mics are satisfactory for you, no one is going to really twist your arm and try to change your mind. We are just trying to help you learn the lessons we did, many of them the hard way. And every time some one buys one of those cheap "copies", they encourage counterfeiters to continue doing it. Though most people do come to realize the mistake after a while. But the price of the gear is offset by the education they get.

As to the price of an ME66, what would you sell it for if you were the manufacturer? What I would like to do is maybe give you a glimpse behind the curtain of manufacturing so you will understand how it works, and not feel like you are getting ripped off everytime when you buy a higher class/quality piece of gear.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]John, it's not my intention to get involved in a slanging match - and I'm not daft enough to think that the brand products aren't better quality (although not nearly as much as some might think).

It's the huge differential in price that surprised me as a newcomer to mic purchase (although not to HifFi and home audio in general)

For the record I now have two second-hand ME66 mics, two Rode M3's, and one or two others, including three of the Chinese shotgun mics (each costing between £13 - £19)

At that price, one would expect them to be utter junk - so bad in comparison to the Sennheiser & Rode mics that one would immediately toss them in the bin and put the cost down to experience.

But they're *not* that bad - far from it. As far as I can ascertain, the main advantage of the ME66 over them is that it's a much hotter mic, which helps with the fairly dismal H4N pre-amps. As far as the actual sound goes, I can hardly tell any difference.

I don't know if they are rip-off products, or whether the design is so basic that it's hard to get it wrong - but, whatever the reason, they stack up very well against the ME66.

Which brings us to cost.

I can see that we're never going to agree on this, but (imo) the Sennheiser really *is* hugely overpriced. As you pointed out, it's a 1991 mic - so any R&D costs must have been recouped long, long ago. Yet Sennheiser still want between £350 - £400 for it.

How can that *not* be 'gravy' for them? What's even more ironic is that I assume that most of the electronic components inside an ME66 are now sourced from China

I understand that some products have such a limited market (top end headphones, for example) that the very high price tags can be partially explained by the fact that they won't sell in volume.

The ME66 doesn't fall into that niche, however - it's the Ford Escort of the mic world. Everyone has one, or has had one - and that's doubtless a very good recommendation for them. However, that should also mean that the current price should be much less than it is, at least, if that price is governed by production costs and not profit motives.

If the price *is* driven by a desire to maximise profit from a very old design (as I think it is) at least they could be honest about it and say so, instead of trying to explain away the price by alluding to non-existent &R&D and production costs.

Let's suppose that Sennheiser took one of the Chinese mics apart to see what made it tick - would the cheap mic *really* be that much different than an ME66?......

I think that Sennheiser are right to be worried about the Chinese competition (and if they're not worried, they should be) As far as I can see, the main thing that the 'brands' have going for them is image, and the reluctance of audiophiles to be seen dead with an HTDZ mic in their possession -

However, if the Chinese can turn out a fairly decent mic for £13 (including shipping to the UK) what would be the result if they decided to turn out a top quality mic for £100 - giving it a suitably Teutonic brand name and investing in some serious advertising?

The Chinese are getting slicker every day - and Sennheiser need more than past glory (and big profits on old mics) to see off the challenge.

All IMO, of course.
[/FONT]

 

[Postmaster]

What makes you think there is excessive profit?

As I have shown in my previous post, much better mics can be - even hand made - by Americans in America and still be cheaper.
That proofes IMHO, that there must be some money, that is not going into the product.

Rode - for example makes some very affordable but great mics IMHO.
They do it by saving labor by using a very automated process.
So only a few folks work in their plant, and a lot of stuff is done by robots.

The Chinese got it the other way - labor is cheap there - sometimes close to slavery.
Hence the prices.

Here in Germany, the price for labor is exorbitant (not that the workers are paid that much - almost 50% goes to social security, taxes and health system before they see the pay check).

But labor is considered manufacturing cost.

So where does the rest of the money go? The money that doesn´t go into making your mic?

1. Huge excessive Administration from shiny buildings to sexy secretaries, Mercedes for the board members and fine art in the foyer.
2. PR and Advertising
3. Shareholder value
4. there is much more, but you get the picture.

So you end up with a product, where a good chunk of the money you pay is not going into R&D or manufacturing.
That they make some profit of their work is no problem, but the Mercedes of the Boss does not really add to your microphone experience.

So if you buy a $600 mic, you actually end up with a mic that is worth $300.

Just for the record, Sennheiser has a lot of stuff made in China.
In 1990 they tried it first, but doesn´t work out back than.
Since 1998 they run a "Chinese office" in China and have parts or complete products made there by contractors.

Frank

 

[John Willett]

People seem to think that because some sweat shop in China produces something cheaply - stuff made in the west is overpriced and they are being ripped off.

Yes, R&D costs of a 20-year old mic. would have been paid off years ago - though many products had to be redesigned a few years ago to comply with ROhS laws and quite a few products were discontinued at that time because it was too expensive to redesign them.

You forget what I said about manufacturing costs going up because of labour charges - there is also the huge bill in the western world (especially Europe) for business taxes, etc..

Don't forget, also that a product has to be manufactured, sold to a distributor, sold on to a wholesaler (sometimes) and then sold to a dealer who sells to you. All these points in the chain have to make a profit - and this is true of every product from every manufacturer, not just microphones.

With some of the boutique microphones - FLEA, MBHO, etc..... most of the time you are buying direct from the manufacturer or from a dealer who buys from the manufacturer direct. This makes the chain smaller and can make a cheaper product. This is why MBHO, for example, can make a mic. in Germany pretty well equal to Schoeps and retail it for a much lower price.

Overheads in China are far far less, labour costs are minuscule, most Chinese manufacturers tend to have a far wider tolerance window that gives a far less consistent product, but far less rejects and very often with very low R&D costs if they are just copying someone else's design. And many are copied without a proper understanding of the design - I was talking to AKG's chief microphone designer a few years ago about this and he showed me Chinese copies of AKG mics. where they did not understand about the importance of capsule damping and the cosmetic changes they had done to make it look different from the original had changed the damping and the whole sound of the mic. The spec. sheet was actually a photocopy of an AKG spec. sheet for a different mic.

All this mounts up.

Yes, you can get a Chinese mic. that will give you acceptable, even good results at a very reasonable price - no problem - but a well engineered mic. from a manufacturer with a reputation to maintain will always cost much more. For example, I would say, you can take two microphones of the same model at random from any of the major mic. manufacturers and you are likely to find that they will be far closer matched than a "matched pair" of inexpensive Chinese mics. I heard a story recently where a broadcaster had purchased 50 Neumann TLM 103 microphones and an engineer had to test them all before they were put into use - he found that the tolerance and consistency was so tight that there was less than half a dB difference from the "best" to the "worst".

High quality manufacturing costs money - as does also good after-sales and technical back-up - in addition, good manufacturers invest in R&D for future products, again, this costs money - some people realise this and are prepared to pay for it.

If your cheapo mic. breaks you throw it in the bin and buy another (or if it's under guarantee, the manufacturer will throw it in the bin and give you another), but the replacement will almost certainly sound different from the original.

You get what you pay for - just please stop accusing manufacturers of profiteering just because you don't understand the economics of business and don't like the price.

 

[John Willett]

Just for the record, Sennheiser has a lot of stuff made in China.
In 1990 they tried it first, but doesn´t work out back than.
Since 1998 they run a "Chinese office" in China and have parts or complete products made there by contractors.

Yes, just like a lot of other companies - but they have people on site and very good QC. You have to have your own people on site or quality drops, that's what most western companies have found out.

And the Sennheiser microphones are made in Germany, it's the in-ear headphones that tend to be made in China and the lower end consumer stuff.

Other headphones are made in Ireland and they also have a factory in the USA.

 

[paulears]

This is quite amusing - I just don't see where counterfeit can ever be good, yet I too have no problem with cheap chinese mics. I've just placed another hefty order for Chinese microphones - I buy from two main sources over there, and the ones I've re-ordered are very similar to the old AKG 451s - slightly different diameter, but pretty much the same. Omni, hyper and cardioid capsules, and the initial batch I had were really good - they have copied the connection system, although the sprung pins are more sturdy - and the very fine thread is just as easy to cross-thread as the original. I've been using them in my mic collection for a year, and with a big order the prices are great. Good value for money BUT they are not as good as 451s - but they're nowhere near the price. The thing with counterfeits is different. If the internal parts of the Sennheiser G2/G3 look-alikes were put into new designed boxes, they'd sell ok for what they are. However, putting these into housings that are intended to deceive people - because that's what they are doing - is wrong. Innocent people believe they have a real Sennheiser system. I have a handheld somebody has given to me for repair. It's not a real one - the replacement Sennheiser part (the battery flap) doesn't fit - when closed with a real part fitted, it is too large to close up. The inner tube has a different design - it's a one piece assembly so at the head end there's very little support and handling noise is pretty high. It sounds ok, but that's not the point. If I had one of these, thinking it was a Sennheiser, I would never buy another - and this is something Sennheiser care about, I'm sure.

I also don't really understand the thing about price. If you really want a certain product, you buy one when you can afford it - It took me years ago a very long time to save up for a 416. When I got it I was really impressed, but gradually I came to understand that it just sounded slightly different from the Audio technica I could afford at that time. I still have them - and select the most appropriate one for the job to suit their sound. I have always wanted a U87 of my own. I used to borrow one from work, but when I became self-employed that was that!

I sell some similar looking Chinese ones, and use them in my studio here - but these sell for under a hundred quid - something rather different from the U87. They sound nothing like a U87 - much brighter - but I'm not angry about Neumann using a design from a long-long time ago with a current price tag of two thousand pounds. When I have two grand spare, will I buy one? Probably not - I'd like one, but I don't begrudge a manufacturer from charging what the market will stand. I was a bit annoyed when Sennheiser put up the price of their radio systems, but it's a market thing - I suspect they saw lots of people needing to buy new systems, so it was an ideal time to do a price re-think. They're no0t ripping anybody off, just setting a new prce point - which is what we all do in a free market.

 

[John Willett]

This is quite amusing - I just don't see where counterfeit can ever be good, yet I too have no problem with cheap chinese mics. I've just placed another hefty order for Chinese microphones - I buy from two main sources over there, and the ones I've re-ordered are very similar to the old AKG 451s - slightly different diameter, but pretty much the same. Omni, hyper and cardioid capsules, and the initial batch I had were really good - they have copied the connection system, although the sprung pins are more sturdy - and the very fine thread is just as easy to cross-thread as the original. I've been using them in my mic collection for a year, and with a big order the prices are great. Good value for money BUT they are not as good as 451s - but they're nowhere near the price. The thing with counterfeits is different. If the internal parts of the Sennheiser G2/G3 look-alikes were put into new designed boxes, they'd sell ok for what they are. However, putting these into housings that are intended to deceive people - because that's what they are doing - is wrong. Innocent people believe they have a real Sennheiser system. I have a handheld somebody has given to me for repair. It's not a real one - the replacement Sennheiser part (the battery flap) doesn't fit - when closed with a real part fitted, it is too large to close up. The inner tube has a different design - it's a one piece assembly so at the head end there's very little support and handling noise is pretty high. It sounds ok, but that's not the point. If I had one of these, thinking it was a Sennheiser, I would never buy another - and this is something Sennheiser care about, I'm sure.

I also don't really understand the thing about price. If you really want a certain product, you buy one when you can afford it - It took me years ago a very long time to save up for a 416. When I got it I was really impressed, but gradually I came to understand that it just sounded slightly different from the Audio technica I could afford at that time. I still have them - and select the most appropriate one for the job to suit their sound. I have always wanted a U87 of my own. I used to borrow one from work, but when I became self-employed that was that!

I sell some similar looking Chinese ones, and use them in my studio here - but these sell for under a hundred quid - something rather different from the U87. They sound nothing like a U87 - much brighter - but I'm not angry about Neumann using a design from a long-long time ago with a current price tag of two thousand pounds.

Agreed.

 

[recordingwhiz]

Not to mention why any one would go into Business and NOT expect to make a profit? Manufacturers are NOT Charities.

Would you venture into a business just to break even? NOT...

ok.. got that out of my system... sorry for the vent.

 

[Alex H.]

This is quite amusing - I just don't see where counterfeit can ever be good, yet I too have no problem with cheap chinese mics. I've just placed another hefty order for Chinese microphones - I buy from two main sources over there, and the ones I've re-ordered are very similar to the old AKG 451s - slightly different diameter, but pretty much the same.

The thing with counterfeits is different. If the internal parts of the Sennheiser G2/G3 look-alikes were put into new designed boxes, they'd sell ok for what they are. However, putting these into housings that are intended to deceive people - because that's what they are doing - is wrong. Innocent people believe they have a real Sennheiser system.

Exactly! It's the difference between a counterfeit and a knock-off. There will always be knock-offs of many consumer products, because once some one has an idea that sells others want to challenge that and try to profit from the trend. Heck the same thing happens in Hollywood... a certain film goes gang-busters at the box-office, and suddenly several other films pop up that have the same style/genre and a remarkably similar storyline.

Imitations and knock-offs aren't as big of a deal, because they don't pretend to be the real deal. Different name, different price, different company... no lies and no deceit.

On the higher price for the name-brand mics, a lot of it has been covered. I think something else that's been missing here is the other half of the R&D cost. Okay, so the R&D for the ME66 was paid off a long time ago, but where did Sennheiser get the R&D funding for the MKH8060? That's a relatively new mic. Well, part of the sales of their older mics has to pay for continuing R&D. That money doesn't just appear, and in order for a company to continue their legagy, they have to keep looking at the next, best thing. So the ME66 isn't paying off its own research and design... it's paying for the next model.

And while the ME66 may be the "Ford Escort" of shotgun mics, it's not like every household in America or Germany owns one. This is still a pretty small market. Yes, the less-expensive options will sell much more to budget-minded folks, beginners, students, etc. The higher-quality gear will sell to a much smaller market of folks who can hear the difference, and expect the purchase to last as long as they do.

You can go out and buy a 40" 1080p HDTV at Best Buy for less than an ME66. Think about that: a 40" HDTV set that's less than a little microphone. If this were strictly about the cost of the parts that went into each product, and the time to assemble the device, logically the TV would cost 5x what the mic would cost, if not more. It seems drastically incongruous, but I can guarantee you that the HDTV manufacturer is going to sell thousands more HDTV units than Sennheiser will sell of their ME66 shotguns.

But back to the original point of this thread... it's the counterfeits that cause the biggest problems: the ones that have the Sennheiser name on them but are made by some anonymous shop in China without the knowledge or consent of Sennheiser. That kind of thing screws the market up, and honestly ends up affecting the prices of the legitimate products.

 

[Framerate]

Yes, just like a lot of other companies - but they have people on site and very good QC. You have to have your own people on site or quality drops, that's what most western companies have found out.

And the Sennheiser microphones are made in Germany

Which is no longer a guarantee of quality.

I've owned brand new German motorhomes (Hymer) that have had a surprising number of problems - problems related to the Hymer conversion of the base chassis, not the original vehicle.

Let's not forget the MKE300, either

Made in Germany, sold at a list price of £180? - and a cheaper, nastier, more plastic electronic item you'd be hard pressed to find.

Very prone to the hard wired lead breaking at the point of entry into the mic - and, generally, cheaply made and flimsy.

Yet, still priced in accordance with the Sennheiser aura of quality :thumbdown

 

[John Willett]

Which is no longer a guarantee of quality.

I've owned brand new German motorhomes (Hymer) that have had a surprising number of problems - problems related to the Hymer conversion of the base chassis, not the original vehicle.

Let's not forget the MKE300, either

Made in Germany, sold at a list price of £180? - and a cheaper, nastier, more plastic electronic item you'd be hard pressed to find.

Very prone to the hard wired lead breaking at the point of entry into the mic - and, generally, cheaply made and flimsy.

Yet, still priced in accordance with the Sennheiser aura of quality :thumbdown

Designed in the days of analogue video recorders and was very inexpensive when it was first produced. When it (MKE 300) first came out there was very little else on the market to compete.

Yes, overtaken by improvements in technology and needed a special modification to cope with the large amount of RF interference radiated by digital cameras - it has, however, been discontinued for several years.

You do really need to put things into context and look at a product at a time when it was designed at the time it was released, rather than basing comments on how it compared at the end of its life.

The MKE 300 was not as "plasticky" as you imply and was actually quite a tough little mic.

I was never that fond of it, personally, but your comments do do it a dis-service.

 

[Framerate]

The MKE 300 was not as "plasticky" as you imply and was actually quite a tough little mic.

I was never that fond of it, personally, but your comments do do it a dis-service.

Well, having owned one, I can say that it was almost entirely plastic - the only things that were not plastic were some internal components, the 3.5mm jack plug, and the screws that held it together.

Everything else was, er, plastic.

Leaving that aside, as this is a thread about counterfiet mics (etc), I really can't see how Rode could possibly complain if their designs were 'ripped off'

Have you seen the Rode WS 6 & 7 'softies'? - just about the only thing that distinguishes them from a Rycote product is the label - yet, if the Chinese mic manufacturers turned out an NTG 3 clone, Rode would be apoplectic....

 

[Alex H.]

Leaving that aside, as this is a thread about counterfiet mics (etc), I really can't see how Rode could possibly complain if their designs were 'ripped off'

No "etc." This is about Sennheiser's response to counterfeit products and has nothing to do with RØDE and a cheap imitation. Again, there is a huge difference between a counterfeit and a knock-off. If the mic you're referencing were a counterfeit, it would have the RØDE name on it, and the trademark gold dot. The mic has neither.

And when did RØDE complain? All we know of their response is a paraphrase from some one else about an email they got from the company. They simply stated that the mic was a cheap knock-off and didn't sound as good. As for the softies, there's only so much you can do with a product like that to make it look completely different. A windscreen is a windscreen. At least they put "RØDE" on it. And why is RØDE coming up here, anyway? They aren't the ones dealing with counterfeit products right now.

 

[Framerate]

Exactly! It's the difference between a counterfeit and a knock-off. There will always be knock-offs of many consumer products.....

This is what I would do if I was Mr Choo Hun-Seng, owner of an electronics factory in China.

First, I would register a decent brand name - let's say 'TFZ' (short for 'Faithful Frequency Response' (Treu Frequenzgang) because, in the microphone world, Teutonic brand names sell....

Then I would shamelessly copy existing high-end mic designs - churning them out cheaply, but not selling them *too* cheaply - in order to preserve the quality mystique.

Then I'd invest heavily in advertising to establish 'TFZ' as a premium brand.

Then I'd buy a new Merecedes, or perhaps a fleet....