Sell your videos on Vimeo ..

[refocusedmedia]

There is no way to directly monetize "likes." What it does is give you a base of information which you can then use for further marketing/promotion, but there's no direct monetary return.

There's monetization of YouTube views (available for some after a certain number of views), but that's not what we're talking about here. It's also pennies unless you get into the millions of views. That alone is by no means a sustainable business model.

Look, what I say concerns the idea that all you have to do is run a Facebook ad and boom, your promotional work is done. That's simply not true. Building an audience is only the very first step. Getting them to click "Pay and continue" is entirely different ball of wax.

There is no direct return, correct. I simply meant that popularity in social realms can equate to cash if one takes advantage of the options available (monetizations, ad revenue, etc). And Youtube's monetization is available to everyone now as long as you're the copyright holder.

 

[David Jimerson]

There is no direct return, correct. I simply meant that popularity in social realms can equate to cash if one takes advantage of the options available (monetizations, ad revenue, etc).

What specifically are you referring to here?

And Youtube's monetization is available to everyone now as long as you're the copyright holder.

OK, that's fine. But it's still pennies unless you get into the millions of views.

But as I said, much of "success" depends on your goals. Do you just want an audience? Not hard to get. Do you want to sustain a business? Hard work.

Look, I've been making a living off creating products out of moving pictures and selling them to customers for some years now, so I do have considerable experience in this area. Social media is cool, but it's not the marketing nirvana it's being made out to be here. If you want to support yourself doing this (selling your own product), you need to work, you need to hustle, and you need a wide array of marketing and sales venues, most of them quite traditional.

So, no, the post I responded to is simply not realistic:

Promotion takes time and money? I suggest that you take a social networking seminar. It's pretty easy to promote a product on FB, Twitter and such.

Indeed, promotion takes time and money. The idea that it doesn't is wishful thinking.

 

[squig]

Vimeo's angle is hoping for that 1 in a million hit. Maybe it's squig's good script that will be that 1?

That's the plan I've got two good scripts, one I'm crowdfunding and shooting later this year, the other one is a much more ambitious prequel.

Hollywood isn't going to disappear anytime soon, people like watching 100 minute commercials and I don't see that ever changing. The vimeo model gives indie filmmakers an opportunity to show their films to the world at very little cost, it cuts out all the middle men. There's never been a better time to make independent films.

Apple shares were $30 when I worked there, but they didn't pay well so I couldn't afford any and I knew they were gonna skyrocket.

The iPod iTunes tech is great but Apples fees are unconscionable.

 

[squig]

Out of the pan and into the fire. Vimeo will start out sounding like a college green hippie, but if this thing takes off, it's more going to be just another suit giving you 10% of whatever YOUR film makes.

Not being pessimistic, but realistic. I don't think the system will ever be fair to the small guy. Hopefully I am wrong.

There's nothing stopping anyone from setting up a server and hosting their own films. It's all about promotion, how do you think Hollywood stays in business.

 

[squig]

Do they still control the blockbuster releases and mega artists? Sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if we see a crowd-funded "blockbuster" in the next 5 years. And we're already seeing independent artists bypass the studio artists in the music industry (i.e., Macklemore & Ryan Lewis), so I wouldn't be surprised to see that begin to happen in film as well.

Yeah imagine if Brad Pitt or Tarantino crowdfunded a film, they'd raise a tonne of money... Harvey wouldn't be pleased, I bet he's trying to buyout vimeo as I speak.

 

[squig]

My question would be what quality content? This isn't to say that there really isn't any outside of the larger system, but as much as people harp on what's in theaters or what's provided on television, it's far far better than most material in film festivals that are outside of the major competitions (Sun/slamdance, SXSW, fantastic etc.), and these are supposed to be the cultivators of quality content.

Hopefully, my pov doesn't seem too negative. That's not the intent, it's just the past two years have been dedicated to market research and the outlook -- if you ask the magic eight ball, seems to be "we'll see". xD

More of these conversations should exist... they're good for relighting the pilot.

You really have to get outta the basement, I was jumping for joy when I heard about this. Finally we have a real alternative to getting fu##ed up the arse by the producers, studios, and distributors. Obviously you're not gonna make millions just plonking your film on vimeo, like anything it's gonna be a lotta work, but if you're smart and you have a great film you don't need a tonne of money to promote and distribute it anymore. When I released the PNAU album I didn't have any money to promote it but word got around fast and we couldn't press the CDs fast enough to keep up with the demand, and like I said this was before the internet, well before Facebook, we did have a website.

There's tonnes of quality content that falls through the cracks, Animal Kingdom won Sundance and screened in something like 3 theatres in LA. Rampart is a great film and it had a lousy theatrical run. Netflix isn't even available in Australia!

 

[squig]

But as I said, much of "success" depends on your goals. Do you just want an audience? Not hard to get. Do you want to sustain a business? Hard work.

Look, I've been making a living off creating products out of moving pictures and selling them to customers for some years now, so I do have considerable experience in this area. Social media is cool, but it's not the marketing nirvana it's being made out to be here. If you want to support yourself doing this (selling your own product), you need to work, you need to hustle, and you need a wide array of marketing and sales venues, most of them quite traditional.

So, no, the post I responded to is simply not realistic:

Indeed, promotion takes time and money. The idea that it doesn't is wishful thinking.

If you're not working hard you're almost guaranteed to fail. I made a $20,000 investment to record an album and made a profit before I signed a multimillion dollar deal with a major, it was hard work and took 4 years but it didn't cost a lot of money. Like I said before an ounce of creativity is worth more than a tonne of money, and that goes for promotion as much as it does for content creation.

If anyone thinks facebook alone will bring in the dollars well good luck to them. I'm putting together my promo mailing list now, so far I've got over 500 magazines and blogs on the list and I should have over 1500 when I start the crowdfunding campaign, it's a lot of work but it doesn't cost a cent.

When I was at film school 3 years ago the students who were half my age practically lived on Facebook, I used to watch them and think "what's wrong with these guys?" I hate spybook with a passion, I don't have a personal page, but I've registered a page for my film because it's an essential part of my marketing strategy. Word of mouth is the best marketing tool, you don't have to pay for it, and social media is instant global word of mouth, if that isn't marketing nirvana I don't know what is. If social media was a big thing when we did the album I probably would have reconsidered signing with a major. I don't have cable, if it wasn't for word of mouth I wouldn't know The Walking Dead or Game of Thrones even existed. If you make a great film it won't cost you much to get the word out, just make sure it's great, the rest really isn't that hard.

 

[Gillvane]

Kudos to Vimeo. How can a generous 90/10 split not be good for indie film makers? One more avenue for self distribution which is a good thing. Obviously you'd like to win Sundance and get a deal with Warner Bros., but if that doesn't happen you might be able to make a few coins on Vimeo. Better than getting raped by Netflix.

I think there is a very real limit to crowd funding. The mainstream movie goer that pays to see a movie wants to see a good movie. That means they are not paying until AFTER the movie is made and everyone knows it's good, or not. The people that buy into crowd funding are the gamblers. They're willing to take a chance and hope the movie will be good, or maybe they don't even care if the movie is good, they just want to "support art" or whatever. Which is great, but it's limited compared to the mainstream movie goer that wants to see something good.

 

[Nektonic]

I think there is a very real limit to crowd funding. The mainstream movie goer that pays to see a movie wants to see a good movie. That means they are not paying until AFTER the movie is made and everyone knows it's good, or not. The people that buy into crowd funding are the gamblers. They're willing to take a chance and hope the movie will be good, or maybe they don't even care if the movie is good, they just want to "support art" or whatever. Which is great, but it's limited compared to the mainstream movie goer that wants to see something good.

Crowd funding is gonna be harder for the unknowns as we roll further into this brave new world of online distribution becoming a bigger piece of the market. The crowd funded stuff that seems to really be a sure thing are the projects done by people with a track record. I just saw this the other day on a blog I read, from science fiction author Tobias Buckell.

http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/2013/03/12/interview-with-me-about-kickstarter/

I think a successful Kickstarter is a mixture of three factors: the cool factor (the intrinsic description of what the project is going to be), your audience factor (how many people ‘follow’ you, both as consumers of what you put out and your various online networks) and the can-this-person-deliver factor. You really need to have strength in two of those three, I think, to do well. Lacking two is a killer. I’ve seen single strength Kickstarters of all of the above fail, though occasionally a cool factor will overcome all. So for a first-time author, who normally doesn’t have a large audience (being a first timer) and hasn’t proven that they can deliver, they’re almost entirely banking on a single leg (is this cool?). That’s a large river to cross.

So what does this mean?

If you're starting out and haven't built that loyal audience yet, then you might just need to be putting up kick ass short films or an initial feature film on Youtube and Vimeo for free.

My personal attitude going into all this is that I just need to have fun and make the stuff I want to make. Put it out there and just maybe I build an audience, then start making new stuff that I could potentially charge for. That might not be a workable plan for everyone, but for me I have to think of it as the act of creating the content the primary reward for my own efforts. Any money or other benefits are just nice bonuses to the larger endeavor of making something that I love or feel some need to create. No, not just artsy stuff, I'm a pretty mainstream kinda movie fan. I'm talking super mainstream stuff and I still wouldn't count on making a cent. I think for me, thinking worst case scenario in terms of financial returns on a self-funded micro-budget film is the only way I'll stay sane, as well as not overspend in the first place.

Another thing I think about is that every time a new thing comes along that looks like it is gonna be a great distribution or marketing tool for indies, if and when it does become that, the big corporate interests will just start using it. Remember when the studios were adamant about none of their content and trailers being on Youtube? How long until a big millionaire movie producer starts using kickstarter to fund their projects and is successful at crowdfunding a tentpole summer blockbuster? Then could kickstarter become overwhelmed by big shots and corporate interests sucking up a lot of the potential funds? It seems possible.

 

[Ryan Patrick O'Hara]

If you're starting out and haven't built that loyal audience yet, then you might just need to be putting up kick ass short films or an initial feature film on Youtube and Vimeo for free.

My personal attitude going into all this is that I just need to have fun and make the stuff I want to make. Put it out there and just maybe I build an audience, then start making new stuff that I could potentially charge for.

Well, my personal attitude is to never give anything away unless I am getting something worthwhile in return. You can make those decisions for yourself, but lightning, for many, only strikes once. Make sure you have your bottle open.

 

[squig]

Well, my personal attitude is to never give anything away unless I am getting something worthwhile in return. You can make those decisions for yourself, but lightning, for many, only strikes once. Make sure you have your bottle open.

Not if you're a bit crazy and carry a big lightning rod. :shocked: I agree with not giving a feature away for free, if it's so bad that nobody will pay for it there's not much point making it except maybe as a learning exercise, but it would probably be a very painful exercise for all involved. Better to just shoot a few shorts to showcase your work first, you gotta crawl before you can walk.

 

[Kholi]

Not if you're a bit crazy and carry a big lightning rod. :shocked: I agree with not giving a feature away for free, if it's so bad that nobody will pay for it there's not much point making it except maybe as a learning exercise, but it would probably be a very painful exercise for all involved. Better to just shoot a few shorts to showcase your work first, you gotta crawl before you can walk.

Welllll you're kind of assuming that just because you think a movie you're making is going to be good it will be.

Everyone thinks that... Very few people actually set out to make a bad movie

 

[squig]

Welllll you're kind of assuming that just because you think a movie you're making is going to be good it will be.

Everyone thinks that... Very few people actually set out to make a bad movie

Yeah well I gave up tripping a long time ago. I have this unique ability to be self critical, it kinda sux a lot of the time, I end up writing 15 drafts and doing 30 takes, but that's what it takes to make a good movie, not many people seem to understand that. 100 take Stanley wasn't a genius, he just worked harder than everybody else.

 

[refocusedmedia]

What specifically are you referring to here?

I'm referring to this mostly, in addition to the various monetization options available to content creators (Youtube's, Vimeo Tip Jar, etc).

I don't discount your experience at all, especially considering I have none myself (as in, I haven't made a cent online from anything I've created, which admittedly isn't all that much yet). But I have watched many others do it. Just as there are musicians supporting themselves entirely from bandcamp/beatport/iTunes and merchandise/ticket sales, so too I believe a filmmaker can support themselves off the various options available to generate revenue without being apart of "the system".

 

[refocusedmedia]

Welllll you're kind of assuming that just because you think a movie you're making is going to be good it will be.

Everyone thinks that... Very few people actually set out to make a bad movie

Is this the part where we post "The Time Machine (I Found At A Yardsale)"?

 

[David Jimerson]

I'm referring to this mostly, in addition to the various monetization options available to content creators (Youtube's, Vimeo Tip Jar, etc).

I don't discount your experience at all, especially considering I have none myself (as in, I haven't made a cent online from anything I've created, which admittedly isn't all that much yet). But I have watched many others do it. Just as there are musicians supporting themselves entirely from bandcamp/beatport/iTunes and merchandise/ticket sales, so too I believe a filmmaker can support themselves off the various options available to generate revenue without being apart of "the system".

That's fine, but remember what I was referring to. You can't just run a Facebook ad and call your promotion done, and Likes don't mean sales.

 

[refocusedmedia]

That's fine, but remember what I was referring to. You can't just run a Facebook ad and call your promotion done, and Likes don't mean sales.

We're in full agreement there. Like you said, it takes time & effort to promote your product.. even if that's through social media.

 

[Ryan-Guy]

These changes in the indie market, crowd funding and now this, as I see it changes the role of the producer the most, not the filmmaker. The indie producer now has to be an expert in social network marketing and crowd funding. The producer now has to make irresistible trailers and promo pieces on a shoestring budget, guerilla marketing, learn how to write press-releases; basically filling the role of a marketing agency on his/her own, all while performing the role of the producer.

The demands of the marketing are shifting from the traditional money-based marketing strategy (tv ads, paid internet ads, etc.), to viral marketing.

This doesn't change the fact that if the project is junk, it won't go far. Actually, it amplifies it. If the public demand isn't there, it won't be supported.

If you're a filmmaker but don't want to deal with or understand the modern indie way, then find a producer that can handle it and believes in your project, or go old-school and find single or small amount of investors, or fund it yourself.

For which you get "likes" by the container-shipload, but almost zero financial return.

Sorry, but I found for my kickstarter campaign that for every 20,000 views of my fb link, i received a very strong average of $1,000 in backings. My link was viewed 400,000 times, and i finished with $43,000. The correlation was undeniable as every time I got a fb group or community or whatever they call them now that had 20,000 followers, I saw an immediate bump of $1,000.

EDIT: Just realized you were talking about actual product sales, not initial funding. We're still in the infancy stage of online distribution. A lot of money out there is in the hands of those that are not familiar, or are reluctant, with online VOD.

 

[squig]

Sorry, but I found for my kickstarter campaign that for every 20,000 views of my fb link, i received a very strong average of $1,000 in backings. My link was viewed 400,000 times, and i finished with $43,000. The correlation was undeniable as every time I got a fb group or community or whatever they call them now that had 20,000 followers, I saw an immediate bump of $1,000.

Hey mate, can you post the link to your kickstarter, I'm studying what others have done so I can get the recipe right for mine. Unfortunately Australia doesn't exist to Kickstarter so I have to go with Indiegogo but I don't think that matters too much, content is king. I personally think an irresistible trailer is essential, a lot of people have raised money with less but that will change when the crowdfunding market gets saturated.

EDIT: That last sentence sounds a bit Kholi. I'm hopeful that crowdfunding takes off in a big way and indie filmmakers build up fan-bases like bands, we're far more talented than rockstars, so why not? :laugh:

 

[Kholi]

EDIT: That last sentence sounds a bit Kholi

Suppose guess that's what I get for no longer posting in the topic, huh?

Let me know exactly what "Content is King" means, I notice people throw it around regularly... does it mean good content is king? Entertaining content is king (entertaining is not inherently bad or good, it is just entertaining). Does it mean ugly content is king, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

This isn't to be a smartass... it's very easy to say "if your project is bad it wont' go anywhere anyway, remember content is king", that's not true at, at all. With the right amount of money, eyes, participation, etc. anything can move very very far.

But, yeah, that's it for me. The data's out there, it's not hard to access at all.