lawriejaffa
Veteran
Well! Can't top what Zak said - so i'll go with this,
Zak + 1
Zak + 1
Seems like it's getting harder and harder to get people to watch short films
- Thread starter GoodLuck
- Start date
Jester2138
Well-known member
There is nothing wrong with aspiring to create art, but there are lots of things wrong with claiming you've created art. The artist cannot call his own work art because he cannot experience it from any other perspective than as the creator. If I say I've created art, I'm saying I've created something that changes other people. It's not my place to say that - it's the audiences. I simply "aspire" and hope it works.
This is actually kind of difficult for me to word - bear with me
. To put it another way, think about airplanes. Most engineers who design airplanes probably don't know how to fly them. They have engineering degrees, not pilots licenses. Let's say I worked on the F-35. I can say it has superior maneuverability or carries a larger payload all I want (those are testable attributes), but calling it the most enjoyable fighter to fly would be nothing short of arrogant. How would I know - I can't fly it!Similarly, calling my own film "art" would be arrogant. How would I know, I can't watch it as an audience! All I can do is try to do everything in such a way that it results in art, but ultimately, only the audience can decide if it's art.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
I get what you're saying. I used to feel the same way. I was afraid of how it "looked". that I'd be judged. but now, I'm less inclined to back off from the truth of what I hope to accomplish. Certainly there is a distinction between good art and bad art. All subjectivity aside, cinema is an art. Good or bad, I am an artist. by the same rationale you illustrated above, calling ones own film "entertaining" would be arrogant. even assuming its "watchable" would be arrogant. where does it end?
I'm as unassuming and selfless a filmmaker as you will find. I'm just thankful people think enough of my work to write nice things about it. No ego here – just want to give people a lot to chew on and the "art house" label doesn't scare me.
I'm as unassuming and selfless a filmmaker as you will find. I'm just thankful people think enough of my work to write nice things about it. No ego here – just want to give people a lot to chew on and the "art house" label doesn't scare me.
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
It's always there. Just goes quiet for a while, but then it rears it's ugly head. There is no consensus. No one agrees on anything and we go off on tangents.
At least some of us are actively out there creating something to show instead of just whining about people not viewing. We understand the limitations of the system and how marketing can help. And that calling it "selling out" (whether it can be defined as art of not) is just lazy thinking and expecting people proscribe to the "build it and they will come" philosophy.
EDIT: Most of us shoudl take a page from Zak's marketing. He creates, encourages others to create and he gets it out there. How many of us can say that we've had our work on Hulu?
Jester2138
Well-known member
by the same rationale, calling ones own film "entertaining" would be arrogant. even assuming its "watchable" would be arrogant. where does it end?
I wouldn't presume that my film is anything other than complete garbage. I hope it's more, I just don't assume. It's called modesty :undecided
When people ask me about a film I'm making, I don't say, "It's an entertaining film created with the highest artistic ideals and you're stupid if you think otherwise," I say something more along the lines of, "I hope you like it!"
If you keep doing this eventually my sig stack will be longer than any of my posts...
lawriejaffa said:
I'm in the process of obtaining British citizenship. Drop me a line when it's time to activate the Fifth Column.
For my part I'm usually immediately suspicious of anyone who styles themselves an artist or their work art simply because the words have been so thoroughly over-used, abused and drained of meaning. There's no standard for titling yourself and your work, that way. Any schlub can crank out twenty minutes of out-of-focus-can't-make-out-the-dialog structureless content-free crapola and excuse it as an 'artistic' exercise...and who's to contradict them?
Better in my mind to allow others to decide whether to hang the words 'art' and 'artist' on what you do and who you are, than to self-promote by granting yourself the title because it's nice to be seen as 'artistic.'
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Batutta
Major Contributor
I don't know, I've been around the block a couple times, and all I can tell you is that modesty never got me anywhere. In fact, it might have been a liability. There's nothing wrong with hyping your talents as long as you have something to back it up with. In fact, I've even seen people succeed who don't have anything to back it up with.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
I'm doing my best to convince folks that if you build the audience, connect with fans and give them a compelling reason to consume your work, you can establish a sustainable living as a filmmaker. but it's hard to get through to them. filmmakers would do well to understand that if they are in the business of making and selling films, they will fail. they are in the business of providing an entertaining experience. and while one person's entertainment varies wildly from another's, no real audience pays to watch a film so they can support a filmmaker. the audience isn't looking for charity cases to throw money at. they part with their money for an experience that will satisfy the manner in which they want to be entertained.
the sooner filmmakers understand that, the sooner they will stop begging people to watch their films and the sooner they will stop asking people on facebook to become a fan of a movie they never heard of, and instead, they will begin to innovate in ways to give people an actual compelling reason to consume their films and to become real, true fans.
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
Muhahahahaha! I wish I could plan good one liners... **sigh**
Modesty is best applied immediately after laying a chunk of really impressive work in front of the viewer. Coming off modest after blowing away your audience is good practice. Being modest - at least, excessively modest - beforehand is not.
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
And that is the real glass ceiling that us Indie Filmmakers have to deal with. Unfortunately a lot of us lack the drive and the follow-through cuz building an audience is hard fricking work and to sustain that level... I don't know how you manage to do it Zak.
Between work and family it's hard to stay focused so I have lots of respect. Of course having a good support structure in place helps...
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
We're not that far off from one another. I usually find myself saying, "I think you're really going to like it."
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
you've made incredible strides right here in the DVXFests. you connect with the community here in a genuine way, you're prolific, we've watched you grow and improve. there are a lot of people invested in what you're doing that will carry with you outside this community.
Rodney V. Smith
DVXFest Promo Guru
You're gonna make me blush with that kind of talk. I can only hope to carry people through outside the community and hope the build the audience.
The thing right now is to connect with the audience who's never heard of me or anyone else here. In the DVXFests we see a lot of really tremendous work and some guys take it outside to the festivals. They do screenings and try to get noticed and maybe get hired to work on other projects.
I know my own work in the fests has gained me higher paying professional gigs, and right now I do have the confidence that when I post a new film, there is an audience out there who will come and watch and maybe send the link on to friends... but that's such a tiny slice of the potential audience.
Media contacts and reviews are an eventual goal and remain elusive to most of us, and is really something to be worked at. Those are the keys to larger audiences and the ones who will determine if there is any artistic label to be bandied about... at least in my case.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
I just want to reiterate how Rodney is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. I don't see him posting shorts asking for feedback in user films. Maybe he does but i haven't seen it. What he DOES do is he makes a film for every DVXFest theme that comes down the line. His corresponding discussion thread offers a degree of transparency that engages the audience in a sincere and meaningful way, so that by the time the short film is available for viewing, people are invested. and so he likely is one of the first films that they will watch and give feedback on. He also has raised his profile by selflessly promoting the festival and ALL of its participants by focusing on the experience it offers an audience. He doesn't beg people to come watch his shorts, he invites people to participate in the experience. Smart.
Doc Bernard
Indie Arms Member
Remember us little guys. Really, though, it is always nice to see one of us "make it". Makes the hard work a little easier. Or harder.
dougspice
Veteran
Zak, I think you misunderstand me. I have no problem with art house cinema. I in fact generally enjoy it. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who wants to call themselves an "art house filmmaker." A filmmaker who doesn't assign meaning to their shot choices or create layers of meaning and metaphor in their work is probably going to bore me – or in the best case I'll sit through the film and never think of it again.
However, I feel like there is a mile of difference between that and someone who with sincerity describes themselves first and foremost as an "artist."
"What do you do?"
"I'm an artist."
Oh, really? What have you actually managed to communicate with that statement. Practically nothing. Are you a painter? A filmmaker? A photographer? A sculptor? It's possible that you are all of those things. In that case, yes, I suppose it would be fair to say that you are an artist. But, more likely, you're just pretentious and superior.
Not coincidentally, "pretentious and superior" are the exact same terms I'd use to describe someone who doesn't care at all if their work resonates with an audience, who insists that expression be pure and untempered. Pretentious and superior people compulsively reject the need to improve, which isn't doing anyone any favors.
I do find I am getting more judgmental the older I get. I'll try anything once, but time is short. I have little esteem for anyone who wastes my time – including me. Which is exactly the answer to the original question asked in this thread. Giving genuine criticism has generally been a waste of my time, so I am less and less inclined to do it except for people I trust. I feel like I have built EXCELLENT feedback networks for the creation of anything creative. Now I really need to work on that same sort of network for the consumption of that same work.
However, I feel like there is a mile of difference between that and someone who with sincerity describes themselves first and foremost as an "artist."
"What do you do?"
"I'm an artist."
Oh, really? What have you actually managed to communicate with that statement. Practically nothing. Are you a painter? A filmmaker? A photographer? A sculptor? It's possible that you are all of those things. In that case, yes, I suppose it would be fair to say that you are an artist. But, more likely, you're just pretentious and superior.
Not coincidentally, "pretentious and superior" are the exact same terms I'd use to describe someone who doesn't care at all if their work resonates with an audience, who insists that expression be pure and untempered. Pretentious and superior people compulsively reject the need to improve, which isn't doing anyone any favors.
I do find I am getting more judgmental the older I get. I'll try anything once, but time is short. I have little esteem for anyone who wastes my time – including me. Which is exactly the answer to the original question asked in this thread. Giving genuine criticism has generally been a waste of my time, so I am less and less inclined to do it except for people I trust. I feel like I have built EXCELLENT feedback networks for the creation of anything creative. Now I really need to work on that same sort of network for the consumption of that same work.
Rippie
Veteran
I'm finishing up a short film I made and have consciously decided to not post it on dvxuser.
I'm very happy how its coming out but after reading threads of others "work" on here
and its amazing how everyone's a critic.
The best part is when you click on the "critics" name and
see the "film" they produced and its laughable that they would have the nerve to put other work down.
Just isn't worth it to me. Of course this is just my own personal opinion.
I agree that this site is much more focused on the technical which is great.
I'm very happy how its coming out but after reading threads of others "work" on here
and its amazing how everyone's a critic.
The best part is when you click on the "critics" name and
see the "film" they produced and its laughable that they would have the nerve to put other work down.
Just isn't worth it to me. Of course this is just my own personal opinion.
I agree that this site is much more focused on the technical which is great.
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
I hear you. I haven't met many people like that – folks who truly have zero regard for "the interpreters". but if I WERE to meet them, I'd happily slap them across the face, on your behalf of course.