'See Impossible': Canon counts down to... something. *UPDATED*

Because Canon has a Cinema-line of video cameras to protect.

They aren't going to undercut a $6k plus video camera with a $1799 DSLR.

That makes no sense.

With all due respect, the thing that makes no sense to me is the whole "protecting" argument. Manufacturers screw over and obsolete their own lines ALL THE TIME. They have to. Is Sony "protecting" the F3? Of course not, they threw it to the wolves. Are they "protecting" the $300,000 F35? Of course not, they replaced and supplanted it with all sorts of products. Are they "protecting" the FS700? You can absolutely bet on that if they don't undercut it in the next few years, Panasonic or Canon or Red or BlackMagic or someone else will. Is Panasonic "protecting" the VariCam 3700? Nope, it's gone. Are they "protecting" the PX5000? No, they just put the exact same processing engines in a $5,000 PX270. It happens. It happens all the time.

So let's take this hypothetical example: will Canon come out with a $1799 DSLR that does everything their $6,000 video camera does? No, of course not... because one costs $1799, and the other costs $6,000. There's more budget and more room to build more into the bigger product.

But let's follow the example through, from the protectionist mindset:
Canon produces a $6,000 C100.
Canon *could*, but refuses to, build a comparable camera for $1,799 in the DSLR shape, thereby "protecting" the C100. If someone wants what the C100 does, by gum, they're gonna have to buy a C100, right? So Canon instead offers a purposely "crippled", substandard model for $1,799, for those who can only afford that much.

Panasonic comes along and produces a $1,799 camera that does everything the C100 does (hypothetically, of course). And it blows away Canon's $1,799 model.

Okay, so what does Canon do? Surely everyone who wanted to buy the C100, will now buy the Panasonic, because it's less than 1/3 the price. And everyone who would have considered buying Canon's creaky old $1,799 model is now going to jump ship too. So does Canon REFUSE to introduce a new $1,799 model to continue "protecting" the C100? If so, they will find their market disappearing twice as fast -- because nobody will be buying C100s, and simultaneously nobody will be buying their old $1,799 model, and further nobody will be $1,799 model that they didn't introduce because they refused to compete.

Meanwhile, simultaneously, Panasonic will be vacuuming up sales for their $1,799 camera, as well as all the sales that would otherwise have gone to Canon for the C100.

So what possible, rational, reasonable logic does it make, for a manufacturer to purposely cut themselves off from sales? How does this make sense? To anyone?

Which of you businessmen, seeing that nobody is buying your services anymore, would just complain but refuse to modify what you do? And if you have done that, how did it work out for you?

Seriously, this is like saying IBM refused to introduce a computer because they were trying to protect their typewriter business. Business just doesn't work that way. Folks who clung to their $60,000 Betacams aren't getting a ton of requests for them anymore.

So, let's take a totally different look at it: let's say that Canon is happy with their C100, C300, and C500 business. And let's say they're happy with their DSLR sales. They're making, selling, and renting all the equipment they can make. What possible reason would they have to want to change that? I mean, sure, their DSLR may not have all the whizbang features of the Sony or the Panasonic, but -- AS LONG AS PEOPLE STILL ARE BUYING IT -- why should they rock that boat? Sure, it may not do what YOU (mr. indie filmmaker) want it to do, but as long as it's selling, why should they change it? Because, someday, maybe you might buy something else? Sorry, your "maybe" doesn't trump their "cash in the bank" approach. If they've got (as DustyLense showed) 53% of the market right now, then there's really no reason for them to go upending anything, is there? And if indie filmmakers go storming off, will that even affect them? Maybe, maybe not; who truly knows just how big a piece of that 53% pie we are?

Canon has been very predictable. This "countdown" campaign didn't affect me in any way, because I knew, innately, that it would be nothing to do with us. Just like their "biggest announcement in the company's history", when lots and lots of people got all hyper-frothy about some super-new camera introduction and it instead turned out to be a photocopier that could make PDF's (or something equally irrelevant, I don't really remember.)

Canon will change their product line when their product line isn't selling anymore, or when it isn't selling in the quantities that they want it to sell in. Until then, there is no reasonable reason for them to change.

So let's go back to the central question here -- if Canon products don't do what you want, then DON'T BUY THEM. No manufacturer gives you points for loyalty. Once they have got your money, once they have cashed your check, they don't care about you. So why do you care about them so much? If they won't make what you want, then go buy from someone who will. If Canon doesn't make what you want, but BlackMagic does, then go buy the BlackMagic. Reward the companies that do what you want and give you what you want. If Panasonic quits making the products people want, like they've largely done, then the market in general will punish them and they either will learn their lesson, or they'll go out of business (meaning, they may discontinue this particular segment of their business). If Sony quits making the products people want, like they did through much of the HDV era, then people will quit buying their products and they'll see their profits fall and their margins shrink. If, on the other hand, they start making the products people want to buy (like they've recently been doing) then they'll see sales pick up and customers returning.

If Canon is truly not making the products you want, then don't buy them.

As far as "investing in a system", I do and don't see that point. I try to avoid getting invested in any particular manufacturer's "system" as much as possible. I bought Nikon lenses and PL lenses because I can use them on anything. I have a few M43 lenses for my AF100, but I mainly use my Nikons on it. Why did I go Nikon instead of Canon? Because Nikons can be used on a Canon, but Canons cannot be used on a Nikon. Because Canons require electrical adapters, and those have been few and far between for other cameras, but Nikons (being fully manual lenses) can be used on any camera, and mount adapters exist for them. If I had a ton of Canon "L" lenses, I might feel trapped in the Canon ecosystem, but I don't ever want to be trapped in any manufacturer's ecosystem. Over the years I've collected a number of batteries and a remote for Panasonics, but those are easily replaceable if the time comes to jump to another manufacturer's product. Besides, the manufacturer will screw you over on your "system" just as much as going to another manufacturer would -- I considered upgrading my Nikon to the latest model, but they've changed the batteries and the remote it uses, even though it's the latest model in the same series! So how is that really any different than just changing to another manufacturer in the first place? It isn't, really. So lenses is the only place where they can hold me hostage, and, as said, I've tried to go with the most universal lenses to mitigate that advantage. I stick with Panasonics more out of that I've learned how they work to the nth degree, and if I go to a new system I'll have to re-learn it all, and besides I only ever buy a new camera every four or five years anyway, when the older one no longer does what I need. But it's not out of being overwhelmingly invested in lenses and batteries and remotes and stuff like that.

I guess it comes down to this: if you're in business, you shouldn't have loyalty to a manufacturer, you should have loyalty to your customers. Your clients are the ones who pay your bills. If they will pay you to use a Canon, then use a Canon. Don't waste time or breath trying to convince them they're wrong, just do what they want, give them what they want, send the invoice and move on. If they won't pay you to use a Canon, then ditch the Canon and get whatever it is that they WILL pay for. But if they won't pay for you to use a Canon, then -- why get hung up on it? If they won't pay you to use a GH4, why take it personally? Sell the GH4 on ebay and get the 5D3, if that's what your client wants and will pay for.

And if you don't have clients -- then -- what does it matter? Get whatever does what you want. But don't buy into a brand or a manufacturer, because they can change, new ones can come along, and old ones may get stuffy and slow. Use what you've got for as long as it continues doing what you need, and when it no longer does what you need, then look at the offerings on the market and choose the one that best suits your existing needs, regardless of who it's from.
 
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For a number of years and still today 50% of TV commercials, movies, and shows, not to mention countless shots of flowers going in and out of focus on Vimeo were shot with your stills only camera. I think the 5D3's are still very relevant today. In fact you could refer to the 5D3 as the venerable master. It's ironic to see "heavy duty trucks" still trying to compete with a "Honda Civic".

When Canon unveils the new 5D4, and C100's, there will be a lot of GH4's, and Sony A7s up for sale. You can't have 50% of the world market and be that stupid!

Quite frankly if yer into photography, shouldn't you be using a Nikon D-800?

Flowers going in and out of focus on Vimeo, I would agree with.
But 50% of all TV commercials, movies and shows??
I'd like to see some sort of link/proof backing up that statement.
i seriously doubt that 50% of those are shot with stills cameras.
 
For a number of years and still today 50% of TV commercials, movies, and shows, not to mention countless shots of flowers going in and out of focus on Vimeo were shot with your stills only camera. I think the 5D3's are still very relevant today. In fact you could refer to the 5D3 as the venerable master. It's ironic to see "heavy duty trucks" still trying to compete with a "Honda Civic".

When Canon unveils the new 5D4, and C100's, there will be a lot of GH4's, and Sony A7s up for sale. You can't have 50% of the world market and be that stupid!

Quite frankly if yer into photography, shouldn't you be using a Nikon D-800?
I used the Pentax 6x7 MF system for three decades during the film days but now I want a smaller system camera but with great image quality for stills and my Sony A7r does the job. When Canon comes out with the 5D4 and new C100 the GH5 and A7s upgrade will be out.
 
If Canon is truly not making the products you want, then don't buy them.

This is a reply to everything you said, but I wanted to condense space so I used only this line.

I don't disagree with anything you said. It's perfectly logical and you're right. But my point remains that if you do invest in a system there is some degree of expectation that system will advance or gain in features over time based on some precedence for this in the electronics and camera industry. It is annoying to have to jump systems but not unexpected these days with as fast as this technology moves compared to the days of celluloid 135 system cameras. Most definitely if there are aspects of that system that you truly enjoy, like Canon color or their EF lenses for both video and AF use in stills. Not necessarily blind loyalty to a brand simply for the sake of loyalty.

My point to everyone else in this thread is just not to downplay my (our - there appears to be more than me) disappointment with Canon over the moves they've made. I don't think it's wrong to have a valid complaint and voice it among peers with the hope that maybe someone from Canon might notice and take it into consideration for their next product cycle. But as you said, if it doesn't work for us, we'll just jump systems. But we're telling Canon and others that we really don't want to do that because there are aspects of Canon cameras we love.
 
I too, am not big into buying into systems.

I do my best to purchase gear which will function with any camera purchase I happen to make.

Cameras are the new expendable.

My short digital camera history...

AG-EZ1
XL-1s
SDX900
XH-A1
Red One M
GH1
AF100
T2i
GH2
GoPro HD
GH3
F35
Red Epic
Arri Alexa
5DmkIII
GH4

I know I'm forgetting a few cameras in there, but the point being… Don't get all caught up into buying into a locked down system.
Buy gear which will work for the majority of your career, and change out the camera as needed to support your clients needs.
 
Same company so what difference does it really make? Most end users don't even know that distinction.

I get that they have a higher end cinema line now. So what, they're just never going to improve on their DSLR video anymore? How is reducing moire and adding heaphone jacks and improving bitrate really going to harm their cinema series? The cinema series is just as much about ergonomics as image qaulity. You buy into those cameras for the dials and buttons and overall layout of the physical working camera which should provide a faster workflow during production.

I will agree with you partially, because if you're talking about Canons cinema series, their physical design isn't great. I really like the image my C300 makes, but I hate actually shooting with it. Bad form factor for my preferred style of shooting. I've made many posts with a laundry list of things that Canon got wrong/needs to change on these cameras. Yeah, they're aimed and priced at professionals, but they're built/designed closer to prosumer. Yes there are physical buttons and dials, but there are still too many functions that you have to go into a menu to execute. Don't get me wrong, they're worlds better than a DSLR, but compared to what we need and are used to they missed the mark.

And I will whole heartedly agree with what others are saying. Buy the best tool for your job. If it's a Canon, Sony, Panny, whatever.
 
For a number of years and still today 50% of TV commercials, movies, and shows, not to mention countless shots of flowers going in and out of focus on Vimeo were shot with your stills only camera. I think the 5D3's are still very relevant today. In fact you could refer to the 5D3 as the venerable master. It's ironic to see "heavy duty trucks" still trying to compete with a "Honda Civic".

When Canon unveils the new 5D4, and C100's, there will be a lot of GH4's, and Sony A7s up for sale. You can't have 50% of the world market and be that stupid!

Quite frankly if yer into photography, shouldn't you be using a Nikon D-800?

I doubt your numbers, especially if you're referring to it being used for principal photography. It's kind of like all of the movies that RED advertises as being shot on(implying that they were used for principal or the majority of photography), when in fact a LOT of them just had selected shots like plates or VFX shots done on one.

And why would I be using a Nikon D-800? I like Canons selection of lenses better(that was my primary reason for going with Canon when I bought my first DSLR), I like their color and I don't have a problem with Canons still cams in general. Fits my needs just fine. If Nikon had something I really wanted or was something that would justify switching or buying into another system, I would.
 
I doubt your numbers, especially if you're referring to it being used for principal photography. It's kind of like all of the movies that RED advertises as being shot on(implying that they were used for principal or the majority of photography), when in fact a LOT of them just had selected shots like plates or VFX shots done on one.

And why would I be using a Nikon D-800? I like Canons selection of lenses better(that was my primary reason for going with Canon when I bought my first DSLR), I like their color and I don't have a problem with Canons still cams in general. Fits my needs just fine. If Nikon had something I really wanted or was something that would justify switching or buying into another system, I would.

Movies 5DMII involved "Hard Boiled Sweets" "Act of Valor" "127 Hours" "Film Socialisme" "Black Swan" "NBC's Saturday Night Live" "Help Me" "The Road to Coronation Street" " Hawaii Five-0" "Behzat Ç. Bir Ankara Polisiyesi" "Rubber" "Dongala Mutha" "Act of Valor" "Marvel's The Avengers" "Department" "Drive" "ParaNorman" and more to come!

When I bought my 5D3 last year at this time I read or heard on YouTube 50% of the commercials on TV used the 5D2. I can't prove it's true but I remember hearing that form a reasonable source. Point being, this little camera did pretty good for a stills camera...... and today companies are still trying to de-throne it.

I like Canon lenses too, but when I was researching what camera to buy, I thought if I were doing stills only, hands down I'd get the Nikon D-800, however, I decided on the 5D3 because of the video.
 
So there's no confusion… I'm NOT slamming the 5D. It's a great stills camera and it makes a great image for 'video', too. And even though I didn't buy any of them for video, I have used my mark III two times, once as a third cam and once as a fourth cam(and the limitations that came with it).
 
Panasonic seems to be having trouble. Canon is the subject of this whole discussion. Sony is rolling out cameras right and left. Perhaps Sony will gain more ground in lieu of these times
 
This thread is hilarious :thumbsup: It's really showing who the pros vs the amatuers are.

Spoken just as I finish a season of a show that you all have seen, shot on Canon - but I don't care what you make me shoot with, I'll make it work (I started with film, so I still prefer Arri). All my current preferences aside, I'm glad I don't have to buy cameras and can just rent - things can change too fast these days.

As for the large number of cameras that companies don't want to protect - that's simple, those cameras were failures. The C300 is not - it still sells/rents like hotcakes, because it makes beautiful images. Of course Canon will protect it - it's really no mystery why Canon's $2000 cameras don't do what their $15,000 cameras do. They are not losing any races to anybody - in true "cinema" cameras they are still way ahead of Sony, Panasonic, and everybody but Arri.
 
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They are not losing any races to anybody - in true "cinema" cameras they are still way ahead of Sony, Panasonic, and everybody but Arri.
I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't see that. F65 and even the F55
are pretty nice as is the Epic and Dragon. So what does Canon have that is 'way ahead' of
those 'true cinema' cams?
 
I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I don't see that. F65 and even the F55
are pretty nice as is the Epic and Dragon. So what does Canon have that is 'way ahead' of
those 'true cinema' cams?

People renting them. Shows being shot on them.

If you want to know the why's of that, it then comes to opinion. Mine is that they make pleasing images out of the box, no fuss - like Arri.
 
Movies 5DMII involved "Hard Boiled Sweets" "Act of Valor" "127 Hours" "Film Socialisme" "Black Swan" "NBC's Saturday Night Live" "Help Me" "The Road to Coronation Street" " Hawaii Five-0" "Behzat Ç. Bir Ankara Polisiyesi" "Rubber" "Dongala Mutha" "Act of Valor" "Marvel's The Avengers" "Department" "Drive" "ParaNorman" and more to come!

When I bought my 5D3 last year at this time I read or heard on YouTube 50% of the commercials on TV used the 5D2. I can't prove it's true but I remember hearing that form a reasonable source. Point being, this little camera did pretty good for a stills camera...... and today companies are still trying to de-throne it.
I'm pretty sure that hearing something on YouTube doesn't necessarily mean its true :)
I will say, the 5d has a unique 'look' (a lot of it is the full frame look which is unique
to full frame cameras) which some agencies really like.
 
I look forward to seeing the specs on the new Canon Cameras. Not really that interested in the ad campaign but I'm very curious to see what direction they go in and what new features they might ad, if any.
 
Canonrumors announced a replacement for the C100 at the NAB show before 2015 the rumor is rated a CR2 so is reliable.

I assuming this is due to the overwhelming cries in the wilderness from this thread, so now everyone can stop their damn complaining and put their GH4's and A7s up for sale now.
 
I'm laughing at some of you that only think "video" with the Canon DSLR market. There are 6 billion people on this planet. You guys are talking about cameras that are designed as stills cameras. I mean, you can see this for yourself. Go to a festival, zoo, or county fair. Look at people with DSLRs hanging off them. Count them by brand and then come on back in here and lets discuss marketshare.
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But never mind the successful testing of a FF sensor with 19 microns in size which can shoot at light levels of 0.03 LUX.
http://www.canon.com/news/2013/mar04e.html

But I guess when people see the latest shinny camera like the A7s they think the camera world is at its end game. But never mind that Sony competes with themselves (Fs7 and F5).



A second angle shot taken with the 5dMk2. A camera going on 7 years old that still competes with cameras released yesterday.
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Keep in mind that Dslr's are still developed primarily for taking STILLS.
Dusty I love your work. That is just beautiful.
 
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