securing abandoned locations

So I've been trying to locally secure an abandoned building location for my latest scriptfest winning short "Nest Runners" ( http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=180956 ) and have so far not met with any success.

I've tried a craigslist posting and contacting a real estate agent for tips. Neither amounted to anything.

I live in Michigan near Flint and Detroit, both of which have no shortage of abandoned buildings.

My plan was to secure a location and then make everyone sign a liability waiver.

My main concern is with squatters and gangs, which I believe would necessitate having along, someone with a concealed carry permit seeing as how there'd be more than $15k in equipment on site.

It would be a two day shoot at most.

So the county clerks office is who I should contact now?

Thanks for any advice.
 
pmark23 said:
The trick is knowing how far into the shades of grey you can go. I especially see it with the producers from large organizations, who have very strict corporate guidelines on law and safety -- but also need to get the material they need so they don't get fired.
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Speaking as somewhat of an authority on low budget shoots, honestly, this is pretty much true. Laws are made with reasons and many simply don't apply to you and your three man crew. When we were doing "Wages" no one asked us for permits. The cops asked us what we were doing. We told them, they said okay and went about their business (after they tried to mack down our actresses but that's a different story).

Worse that has happened is the security guard in the Wrigley buidling said we couldn't shoot in front of the building, then said, "But you can shoot all day in the back." The back was awesome, had room to do fight scenes, was less traveled and was a lot better. We did respect property rights, but at the same time we would've shot right there had we not known.

The truth is most time, your average indy distributor isn't going to ask for a the paperwork. They really don't care. I talk about this in my "Action Filmmaking" book. And the E&O insurance line is somewhat of a scam too as most times if you didn't buy it, they won't either. They figure there's a better chance of them simply not being sued. They know they'll be out of $10,000 (or whatever the silly amount is) for E&O, weighed against the chances of them getting sued and they simply won't buy it. Maybe if there's a big name in your film.

pmark23 said:
However, if you're just some kid with an HVX and a few buddies trying to make a zombie-flick in an abandoned factory -- nothing bad is going to happen. Nobody will sue you. Nobody will throw you in jail. Nobody will die (unless you're being idiots). Worse that will happen is you'll get kicked off the property -- and chances are that you'll be able to talk yourselves into finishing the shots (and gain a few actors in the process!)
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Nothing bad should happen and for the most part won't, but there are always chances of freak occurrences. And I'm an action filmmaker so all we do all day is jump around and kick things (and people LOL) so we have to be careful. Plus you should be in your location at least once before shooting to test everything you can.

As for the realities of shooting, the fact is if you don't have a million bucks you simply won't make your film if you follow all the rules. The fact you're doing an indy means you're not following the rules mainly set up for films shot by corporations. Most of the rules are profit based and again don't really apply to you. In fact considering the amount of film schools here in Chicago, those rules don't apply to them either. $25 for a permit sounds okay, until you know they want you to have a million dollars in production insurance. The cheapest I found was $700, my first film cost about $800. I'll take the back of the Wrigley building. Finding free locations is a bit of a skill.

As far a abandoned buildings go, I would find out what I could about the building and if no one claims it and it's open, (you don't have to break in), I'd say go for it. But there are risk and I'm not talking about the cops. The floors can be old, mold and asbestos can be present, and crackheads can be dangerous.

I tend to travel with a bunch of guys who can run up walls and emulate the kinds of stuff seen in Street Fighter (yes I know people who can do flip kicks and spinning round houses) so I would feel pretty safe versus a crackhead. But keep in mind you have a camera they can sale. Considering you will have a crew that may probably make things a bit safer, but crackheads don't always think straight, as the only fighting that should be going on is the one on screen. And honestly martial artist, (good ones who know something about the spirit of the art) will back down from a fight before engaging in one. But you get the point I'm making.

When we were shooting on Clark and Division we didn't have permits, so we couldn't make people not get in our shots are scream things with the intention of disturbing the shoot. We also bumped head with a thug on a bike. He seemed innocent enough. He asked what we were doing and I guess no one responded so he got mad and claimed he ran that street so we didn't have the right to be there. We ignored him and he left.

We ran into another guy who wanted to start an argument with us because, well, he was drunk. His friend pulled him away from us under the guise we were doing our jobs and he would get arrested for messing with us. I'll never forget the dialogue, "They got jobs. You wanna go to jail? What's wrong with you?" Keep in mind this was on a street, which is public, so you know anything can happen in an abandoned building. Permits do give you a certain amount of leverage that says "I have permission to be here". Without one you have the same rights as the "public". But no matter what, harassment is a crime and if anyone attacks you that's still a crime. Your rights don't go away because you have a camera. People are normally nice, but @$$holes abound so you have to be careful, which would be my main advice to you.

Additional
If push comes to shove, order a "security" T-shirt from eBay, find a big black guy via craigslist, either tall and fat or tall and muscular, really doesn't matter, and put that T-shirt on him and have him stand around your set looking mean. For the most part people will leave you a lone.

-Nate
 
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I lived in Detroit for a long time and used many abandoned locations for guerrilla films I've made. We were once shooting a low/no budget feature in the Delray Neighborhood of Southwest Detroit (not for the faint of heart) when a Detroit Cop stopped to see what we were doing. We dropped my favorite get out of jail free card line that, "We were students at Wayne State University, shooting a student film...". He bought it and then told us, "You want to shoot some place very cool?". He then told us to follow him in his Scout car. He drove us up over the curb, through the grass of a dilapidated park, through a large hole in a busted down fence and to a spot that is underneath the highest point of the I-75 bridge, as it crosses the Rouge River. It was a great. The cop told us that if anyone bothered us that we were to tell them that, "Sergeant Garcia said that is was ok!" We shot there all day. Latter, some cops from CSX Railroad showed up to see what we were doing, but since we weren't on Rail Road property, they didn't do anything but watch us for a while. We used that location many times latter and used it for a music video from which these stills were taken:

Watchmebleedstill2.jpg


Watchmebleedstill1.jpg


Now this is a good story and it worked out for us with a small crew, shooing uber guerrilla style. However, I think that going into an abandoned building, is a different issue, and is dangerous. Like said above, a few folks and a HVX, shooting a guerrilla film is one thing, but if you are shooting a commercial venture, with a professional crew, well, that is a whole different ball game. For guerrilla style, if you recognize and respect the hazards, then you gotta do what you gotta do. If you are shooting a commercial venture, then there is no way in hell you should be shooting in locations that you do not have full permission to shot at. It is just not worth the risk.
 
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OMG! Yes, always have some students with you. As for me I teach multimedia writing and will video production. My new get out of jail free card is "I teach video production at (name school) and I'm doing an indy project. Now this is 100% truth, but in their minds this equates to film + school = student film or something close to it. And since I have my ID on me, if I'm pushed I can always flash it. But I never really had to go that route. Cops rarely hassle you in Chicago unless you're on private property and then they simply move you along.

-Nate
 
I've shot is some pretty dilapidated nasty locations, but 95% of the time I've had permission...and I mainly work on ultra-low to micro to No-Budget productions....Guerrilla is an everyday occurrence, but my guerrilla usually involves public streets, building, transportation, etc...with a few buildings thrown in here, mostly currently used for some function.

I say if it's a private location like an apartment building, pool, hotel, subway, etc., and your an indy guerrilla, then fine shoot quick, dirty, and get the hell out...but as for abandoned buildings and such....if you ain't got permission, then I'd avoid it. It's good to know the history, current problems, great spots within, etc. of a location, from the owner....and of course you'll be forced to waive your rights to sue them...always be PREPARED with that paperwork...don't dawdle with being ready to sign away that right, cause if it comes up early, the owner will be much more prepared to let you in.

I've filmed in a few abandoned locations...all with permission. Start talking to friends, associates, friends of friends, associates of friends...put out the feelers...TRUST ME, something will pop up.
 
That's how it should be done when trying to get abandoned properties. Good work Nick.

-Nate
 
What if the abandoned place is government owned, like an ex-hospital?

Would I run into trouble with a distributor if I had shot in such a place, without permission or release?
 
Yes. It's very possible. This is one you would definitely NEED to get some okay for.

-Nate
 
ThereIsNoLimit said:
What if the abandoned place is government owned, like an ex-hospital?

Would I run into trouble with a distributor if I had shot in such a place, without permission or release?
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If you are sneaking into a government owned building, the least of your worries are what a distributor may say latter. I definitely be most worried about losing the location due to law enforcement involvement. If you want to shot on government property, be prepared to jump though some serious hoops.
I shot a no-budget feature in an abandoned hospital in Richmond Va that was privately owned. The producer/director got the place for free because the owner wanted to market the place for film making. As we were finishing up shooting our little flick, an ABC TV show, moved in and set up shop. I guess the place stayed booked , as a location, for quite a while and the owners were so grateful to our producer/director (for giving them legitimacy as a location) that we were able to go back again, for free to shot a low budget short.
 
NO.

The distributor will NEVER EVER EVER ask to see your location releases, just like they'll never ask to see your budget. It's none of their business.

Nobody can "own" your footage because of the location you shot in. This is just dumb. If you can get away with shooting the footage guerrilla style, then it's yours. Of course it's better if you have permission, but NOBODY can stop you from using the footage. NOBODY.
 
Well a distributor doesn't want to have any issues with the movie - whether it be locations, or the Coca-Cola bottle bieng used as a weapon in a hold-up.

If someone had a private building that for whatever reason wanted to remain private, and one day they see the interior of it used in a movie, they can and have the right to have it removed or get compensation in some manner should they desire.

Michael
 
No, that's wrong.

And a trademark being shown and a location are two entirely different things. Don't confuse them.
 
And also most low budget distributors are willing to risk the "only so many people will see this" factor. They won't do it with movies but with everything else. We had an Apple logo in The 4th Beast, didn't stop it from getting distribution.

-Nate
 
That's my point, whether it be a location or a trademark, the distributor doesn't care - Coca-Cola may care, and in the previous post Apple may care (note the use of the word "may") that is the gamble you are taking. If any one of those owners care, or feel they need to be compensated, they will do so. Legal tangles can take the film out of distribution. I got clearances for a well known and trademarked clock in my last film - sales and agents and distributors so far where it has sold has not asked for anything from me. They assume I have done my work in a professional manner. There are also E&O Insurance in the deals as well.

As a producer dealing with investor's money, it is my responsibility to ensure nothing stops the distribution process and prevent them from monetizing their investment. And ensures they will be around for the next film.


Michael
 
Since you have investors I'm assuming you have some name actors, so E&O would be good to have for that project. I've heard many distributors don't go that route even but will include it as a charge back to the filmmakers even though it's never really bought if no big names are in the film.

-Nate
 
The helplessness of being escorted off the premisis

The helplessness of being escorted off the premisis

I was all lined up for shooting a promo, secured the actors, makeup, crew, half price kit and transport, even the sandwiches for lunch, all 40 of them. The only thing i didn't have however was permission to shoot in the abandoned building location. BIG MISTAKE.

After arrival and setup, makeup had begun and we'd started to capture some great cut-aways. Everything was in-place and the sun was shining on the peeling wallpaper, exactly what we were after. Around 10.40am the make-up girl wanders in and gently makes me aware that the Police had entered the premises and were now heading up the stairs towards us. Oh dear.

The coppers, two of them, a short one and a large one amble over with big grins on their face. 'What are you doing here' the short one says ' Making a film' I say, 'Have you got permission to film here sir' 'no' i say 'I don't', The unraveling of the entire 2 month pre-production crumbles before me. BIG MISTAKE. 'I'm afraid we're going to have to escort you off the premises then' the short one says arching back on his heels, hands in his vest. 'But I've spent over £700 on all this and we've hardly shot anything....

Never again will i make the same mistake again, not only did it cost me hugely but it also wasted everyone's time and effort. A lead balloon indeed. All however could have been salvaged if a plan B had been in-place, there wasn't so much as a sniff of that. We actually asked the coppers about other suitable spots which they very helpfully suggested. It was however too little too late and the wrap ended at 5pm with little more than a guy caked in ash running around a series of gun turrets hiding from the sun.

The salvage attempt was even interluded with a visit from the same two policemen. This time the short one held out his hand opened it and revealed two halves of a chain link from the chain we'd bolt cutted to get access to the space. Arrest was seriously on the cards now. ' I can see your trying to do something with you life so on this occasion i'm going to turn a blind eye' the short one said. 'Thanks' I said and wandered away stunned at my sheer cavalier naive attitude.

This has indeed been my biggest film-making lesson to date. It is a mistake I will never let happen again. If you must shoot in the space always have a plan B failing that have a plan C-Z.
I'll be asking for permission to shoot in the same location but from the proper authorities. All the props are still down there so closure on this needs to be made.

Good Luck and I hope my own experience can inform your decision making for the better.

Matt
 
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