SD302 HOOKUP with DR680 help

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boxbreaker

Member
I have my 302 plugged into input 1 and 2 on the dr-680 via the MIX / TAPE out using a T3 to xlr male connection. Input 1 and 2 is set to Line on the 680. How should I setup them so they are calibrated together. I'm not sure where to set the trim on the 680. I'm also confused on the output attenuation on the 302
 
Your TA3 to XLR adapter is likely to be a problem. The TA3 on the 302 is an unbalanced stereo output, pin 1 ground, pin 2 left channel, pin 3 right channel. An XLR is a balanced mono input, pin 1 ground, pin 2 signal hot, pin 3 signal cold. A straight through adapter will feed the left and right channel mixer outputs to one mono input on the recorder 180 degrees out of phase with each other. You need a purpose-built TA3 to dual-XLR 'Y' stereo splitter cable to do it right. Also, the 302's Tape Out is rated at -15dBu, a hair lower than consumer line level. OTOH, the line input of the DR680 is rated at +4dBu, 'Pro' line level. That's about a 20dB mismatch. A better bet would be to use a pair of XLRF->XLRM patch cables and go direct from the 302's XLR main outputs to the Tascam's XLR line inputs. That gives you matched levels on both devices. To calibrate, turn on the tone on the 302 and adjust the input level on the 680 to make its meter read -18dBFS (EBU standard) or -20dBFS (SMPTE standard).
 
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boxbreaker said:
I have my 302 plugged into input 1 and 2 on the dr-680 via the MIX / TAPE out using a T3 to xlr male connection.
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Say what? You should not be using the mix/tape out at all. You should be using standard XLR cables, line out from the 302 to line in on the DR-680. Balanced all the way. Should work smooth as butter.
 
Tape out from the 302 works fine. I use it to feed line in to a DR100 when needed. Having said that, is the op using the 302 xlr outputs for something else?

G
 
I was just using the ta3 cable because it was convenient, in what cases should I use the TA3 cable? I'll use regular XLR cables coming from the L-Line and R-Line . Do I not need to worry about the "out atten"? On the dr680 the trim level menu is a little vague, how can I be sure the dr680 is reading the tone at -20 dbfs
 
boxbreaker said:
I was just using the ta3 cable because it was convenient, in what cases should I use the TA3 cable? I'll use regular XLR cables coming from the L-Line and R-Line . Do I not need to worry about the "out atten"? On the dr680 the trim level menu is a little vague, how can I be sure the dr680 is reading the tone at -20 dbfs
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You'd use the TA3 with a 'Y' splitter cable to send an unbalanced stereo pair signal to -10dBv consumer line level stereo inputs, but those aren't what the DR680 has. No need to worry about "out atten" - leave it at the factory default when using the mixer with the 680. 'Atten' is set in the 302 menu to reduce the output level when you need to send the main outs to something with an input sensitivity less than the standard nominal pro +4dBu. To set the levels ... there appears to be a line across the meter at -16dBFS. You could use that as your calibration point - sending tone and adjusting the input trim for those two channels until the meter touches the line. It's a little hotter than standard but not by much,
 
The 680 (in line level) wants to see +4db (nominal). The 302's TA3 Tape out is -15dB... low.. it would work, but it's not for optimal performance. In my experience, with the 680 record trim set to 12 o'clock (unity/default), feeding a 0VU ref tone from the 302 will give a meter reading within 1 or 2 dBs or -20dBFS .. which is what you want. Confirm the 302's XLR outputs are NOT attenuated, the LED on the right side panel will be illuminated if the attenuator is enabled.
 
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Ok so that would mean a incoming signal averaging around -12 db on my 302 will be recording at around -32 Db on the tascam ... Am I missing something because I thought the point was to be recording around -12.. the
 
boxbreaker said:
Ok so that would mean a incoming signal averaging around -12 db on my 302 will be recording at around -32 Db on the tascam ... Am I missing something because I thought the point was to be recording around -12.. the
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You don't want to record at -12 on the 302's meters. The 302 meters should read about 0dBVU or a little higher on average, in the orange LEDs. That will result in a recording level of aoround -12dBFS on the TASCAM's meters. dBFS means "decibels below full scale." If you look at the 302 meters, full-scale is +20dBu. 12 dB below that is +8dBu, the top of the orange. dBu and dBFS are different references. The alignment process correlates a given dBu output to read a specific value of dBFS.
 
Page 20 in the 302 user manual may make it a little clearer. "ADVANCED GAIN STRUCTURE AND INTERCONNECTION"

As Steve stated and to simplify, your 302 meter should be peaking in the 'orange' area. Occasional peaks in the 'red' are ok as well, and if adjusted properly*, the 302's limiter should kick in just prior to +20dBu. ( 0dBFS on the recorder, just prior to clipping)

( * I recall the 302's factory default limiter setting is @ +18dB ) If you're paranoid you could set it a few dB lower... +16db for instance.
 
boxbreaker said:
Ok so that would mean a incoming signal averaging around -12 db on my 302 will be recording at around -32 Db on the tascam ... Am I missing something because I thought the point was to be recording around -12.. the
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Indeed, you are missing something. You seem to be expecting the meters on the 302 to be showing you the same thing as the meters on the Tascam. They are not. The 302 is showing you dBu (volume units), a hold over from the magnetic tape days, while the Tascam is showing you dBFS. You don't have to understand that to make it work however.

Here's what I recommend. First get two short XLR cables. Connect XLR outputs (L and R) on the 302 to XLR inputs on the DR680. Make sure that they are both the same level (pro line level). Next, turn both units on and activate tone on the 302. This will send a calibration tone out all the 302's various outputs, including the XLR outs you just connected to the DR680. With the 302's tone still on, adjust the DR680 so that both of the channels you're connected to read -20 dBFS. Then set the DR680 down because you're done messing with it, and turn off tone on the 302.

Next, set the limiters on the 302 to +18 dBu. IOW, the factory default.

Now, plug in your mic(s) and record something. Set your average peaks (dialog, music, it all works more or less the same) so that you just get into the red on the 302. That should be around +8 or +10 dBu (I forget exactly, it's been a while since I saw a 302 up close). Why here? Because it's easier to see the transition to red than it is to actually read the numbers when you are working. Try it and see.

That's it. That's all you have to do to make them work well together. IOW, your recording levels are high so you get good signal to noise ratio, yet you are basically clip-proof because of the 302's limiters. This setup puts you in the "sweet spot".

What you get from this is average peaks at the recorder of around -12 or -10 dBFS. You've got good headroom on both the 302 and the DR680 to cover the over enthusiastic talent screaming, and you've got limiters to keep you from clipping if something bizarre happens, like they hit something with a hammer.

That's how I do it anyway. Never had a problem with this kind of setup.
 
How would I record 2 wireless kits and a boom. Send one wireless kit directly to the dr-680? And if I wanted to send a reference track to a DSLR camera, will a normal 1/8 cable out a the 302 headphone jack work? or I'm I approaching that wrong
 
boxbreaker said:
How would I record 2 wireless kits and a boom. Send one wireless kit directly to the dr-680? And if I wanted to send a reference track to a DSLR camera, will a normal 1/8 cable out a the 302 headphone jack work? or I'm I approaching that wrong
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2 wireless + 1 boom = 3 mics. The 302 has 3 mic inputs mixing to a stereo output, hence its name. Route the wireless inputs to one recording channel, the boom to the other. The headphone out will be too hot for a DSLR input plus you have a better use for the headphone out ... monitoring as you record. Use the tape out and pad it down to mic level.
 
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You can send one or more lavs to the 680 via mic or line level. With a G2/3 you can send line level into the 680 with the EK100 portable receiver's AF output set to max. Same goes into a 302, though the preamp trim will be maxed out.
As Steve stated the 302's Tape out will work (-14dBu (nominal) unbalanced TA3), but would need to be attenuated to mic level for most DSRLs. (OTHH, the 302's XLRs can be attenuated via the software menu if your not using them) The 680's RCA direct outs could be used as well, but you'd need a submixer or summing device. The 680's HP out could be attenuated to mic level, but monitoring would be an issue.
 
Okay, so having two radio mics on the same recording channel is fine, I thought that would cause problems.

I'll be using the 302's main XLR outs to record on the dr680. I wanted a reference signal feeding the DSLR camera to make things easier in post. Am I approaching that wrong? Will the Digital out on the dr680 work, I'm not sure exactly how to implement that. Is a ta3 to "attenuated" 1/8th cable coming from the 302's tape out the best option ?

And your suggesting I use the "RTN" and monitor from the sd302? How should that be set up , use the Phones output on the dr680 to the "RTN" on the 302?
 
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I use the 302's return to monitor from the 680 HP out. The SD's HP amp is much better. That configuration allows soloing and mixing via 680's control panel and internal mixer.
"Okay, so having two radio mics on the same recording channel is fine"
> I never stated that, or was misunderstood. I would never put two mics on the same track (especially wireless) except as a last resort. i.e., no open tracks available.
 
boxbreaker said:
I wanted a reference signal feeding the DSLR camera to make things easier in post.
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On my MixPre-D there's an unbalanced mic level output specifically designed for running to DSLR to make a scratch track. So you run the balanced XLR line outs to the recorder, and you run this mic level out to the DSLR. I don't know if the 302 has this feature, but it might be worth your time to check.
 
Rick R said:
I use the 302's return to monitor from the 680 HP out. The SD's HP amp is much better. That configuration allows soloing and mixing via 680's control panel and internal mixer.
"Okay, so having two radio mics on the same recording channel is fine"
> I never stated that, or was misunderstood. I would never put two mics on the same track (especially wireless) except as a last resort. i.e., no open tracks available.
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He's got 2 radio mics plus a boom. If he puts 1 radio and the boom into the 302 and the second radio direct into the 680, he might as well just put all three mics direct into the 680 and forget the 302. If he wants to use the 302 for all three, he's got to somehow get three channels down to two so he needs to mix two of the three together. It would be better to mix the 2 radios down to one of the stereo channels and put the boom on the other than to try to mix the boom and one radio together for 1 channel and the remaining radio on the other. Too bad he doesn't have a mixer with direct outs for each input such as with the 442 or higher, that way he could feed three channels on the recorder an iso track for each mic plus have a 2-channel mix on the main outs to feed the camera.
 
I use the 302 mic pres (and faders) for boom(s) only, and as a HP monitor amp. The 680's mic pres are 'ok' but not in the same league as the SD. The wireless are line level into the 680 so preamps are not an issue and gain riding is not needed much since they're iso tracks. Of course this set-up is for a sound person, not a cam op OMB.
 
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