Screenplay Competitions / Festivals

J

JonathanLB

Carbonite Member
What is the main usefulness of these and would you recommend them?

I guess I'm wondering if anyone's perspective is more along the lines of what I'm looking to do in the industry, rather than just a strict screenwriter or screenwriter hopeful.

In other words, if I have a script in the near future that I think is great material and am really proud of, what will I gain by submitting to contests? Is it mainly a good measuring stick to see how the work stacks up, am I looking to get agency representation, am I looking to option the script, or what?

The reason I ask is because one script, I will not just behave like the writer is expected to do, and if that means there's no use in submitting to such contests, it's best to know that and pocket this script, maybe try with something else. They always say, "Don't try to attach yourself as director, blah blah, your material could be totally changed, etc." I'm not willing to have that happen with this script. I believe I could produce it for $300,000 to $500,000 and would prefer to do so than let someone else ruin the material, and I will direct it, or it won't go to screen. I'm a writer-director, so I don't right now have much interest in making a few quick bucks *even if i could* just optioning or selling this particular script. I'm by no means saying it's even good enough, who is to say, I'm talking in theory here even if I had written 20 scripts, then at least for this particular one, I do not want someone else doing it.

But what I have read is that sometimes you can get signed by an agent not so much to represent just this project, but because they see general ability and talent and want to see what you have to offer in the future. In that case, having a script that is my best, my passion project, would best showcase my abilities and get me in the door so that I could perhaps sell other material that was very good, but that I could live with letting go, with someone else directing, material totally rewritten, whatever. That would apply to most of the other scripts I'm outlining. I'd love to direct them all but, you know, I'd be excited enough that anyone was interested in them I feel like I could let them go no problem. It's just this particular one that even if you offered me $100,000 and said ok now it's out of your hands, we can do what we want with it, we want to change this and that, etc., I'd politely decline. I can live without another $100K, but I can't be happy at all if something this important to me is butchered. It's just not going to happen. I also think somehow that it would be easier to raise funds if I needed to go that route with a script that had done very well in competitions, like it would be another bullet in the chamber. For instance, you could previsualize the film with storyboards, set it up like a movie, get people to do the voices, narration, add temp music, and basically showcase your vision for the project, combined with accolades given to attest to the quality of the script. Then if you combined that with a track record, i.e. if I had produced two films and directed them before this, and they had done well, then maybe you'd be building enough of a case to raise a modest budget to pull it off. *shrug* I don't know, just thoughts.

Then there's my first script, which I'm producing anyway, so I am not bothering to send it off anywhere because it's going to be a film, so it seems best to score recognition for a completed project not merely a script for it.

So thoughts in general on what you gain from these competitions? What should you be hoping for? What do you expect? Worthwhile, not worthwhile?
 
A guy placed 4th at the Austin Film Festival, MTV asked him to write a movie for them (middle age guy at that).

A guy placed in the top 10 of the Nicholl Fellowship, his movie, "Armored" for which script got him in the top ten comes out this fall, he scored $400k and is now busy as a pro.

Festivals get you noticed, get you meetings, but don't guarantee you success.

I know a person who won the Nicholl Fellowship and nothing ever came out of it for her.

Screenwriting contest to enter:

Nicholl Fellowship
Austin Film Festival
Sundance
Scriptalooza
Blue Cat
Disney Fellowship
Warner Brothers Fellowship
 
Hey,

That's awesome, well so that's what I was thinking is that if you showed the ability to write good stuff, there may be opportunities. My issue is, I fully understand -- and agree with -- the idea that whoever has the money makes the final decisions. And that if I sell a script, hey, it's theirs to do what they please with, it's no longer in my hands. I can only hope for the best.

While all of that is true, I'm not just a writer, I'm a producer, and a director, as well. So I would like to be able to choose which projects I can use which hats with to the best of my ability. There may be a lot of scripts I'm happy to sell, would be overjoyed with that opportunity / success, and let them do with them as they please, hopefully something good, but you know... out of my hands. Then there may be a few, like this one, that I absolutely insist on directing. And I also realize that if I insist upon that, I may indeed need to be the one producing as well, and I'm alright with that. I can raise any amount under the $500K mark, maybe not easily, but I have the resources to make those projects happen provided I can find some level of success. Then there may be other times where I'd be happy to be hired to direct something only, like in the case of music videos, for instance.

The point is, I am patient, and not a starving artist, I will not sell a screenplay that I feel in my heart I must direct, but if someone thinks that's a great screenplay they will either let me direct it, as I'm a director first anyway not a screenwriter trying to direct, or they will look at my other work that I'd be more than happy to part with. ;)

Thanks for those contests, I'm going to write these down, because it'd be very helpful to know.
 
Jon - send me ten pages of your script and let me analyze them and I can sort of tell you about where you are so screenwriter. I am not a produced screenwriter or a reader but I have given a lot of feedback over the years and I might be able to help get the information you need that might be lacking in your script.

but only if you want the offers on the table - 10 pages.
 
Nice

Nice

I haven't finished an even close to acceptable draft of either of my screenplays yet, but I would definitely be interested in feedback when I get it ready! I'm just going through it for the second time now, and even then the first time was not as thorough as it should be. I can tell you I wrote 16 drafts of my first book, 13 of the second, so... it will take many drafts before I'm even close to happy with a script.

That being said, I'm still working on more, will be outlining another script or two in not that long from now, when I get the first two whipped into "decent" shape, because I want to keep building a portfolio. I have read so often that screenwriters don't write a "good" script until X number, etc. I really don't buy that in the sense that I think if you have a lot of writing experience before you try screenwriting, you're not going to need that same time frame. I'll certainly say the first screenplay I tried to write, for a class, where we didn't have to finish it all but just the first 40 pages plus a full outline, was a pile of crap. The basic concept wasn't bad, actually, who knows, maybe I'll return to it one day. But the way the teacher changed it around, he ruined the originality. It became really lame. It was a comedy that was painfully unfunny and lame. Just looking it over... it was seriously terrible. But, I got the formatting right, and I think I understood how to write the form, just the story and character were lame basically. Sure wish I could go back to that class now... my only B in 180 credits of college, and it came on my last term, doh!

But anyway, whether or not I believe this to be the case doesn't matter, I would prefer to see for myself what happens after I write 4-5 scripts. Namely, I'm writing a second romantic comedy, so I can see if it turns out better than the first. If so, that will give me some guidance on how to rewrite that first one, since I love the idea, other people love the idea, it's really got a lot of potential and I'm planning to film it. But right now, it does need work on rewriting, and I'll start doing maybe 3-4 passes at that, get it into good shape, before I write another screenplay, then return to it to see what I think then. I have another comedy screenplay idea after that, plus a sci-fi / thriller / suspense type of idea I'm developing as well. 5 total feature ideas. I'll write them, see where I stand, and it'll be a good reference point for me. If the work keeps getting better, there's no need in my opinion to accept this whole "well your first X screenplays suck, throw them out," that's nonsense. I would never commit to writing a screenplay if the idea weren't great. The ideas are all great. It's the execution that I'm concerned about. The way I come up with ideas, I usually put them into notepad files, think about 'em a bit, mostly forget about them. Then I return to them every month or so for a while. Sometimes 4-5 years, it depends. If I still think it's a good idea 6 months later, it's probably a good idea. A year later, it's almost certainly a good idea. Out of 10, I would say 7 flat out suck, they are retarded, no idea why I came up with them. 2 are alright. Maybe if they were written well they'd be good, but they're not impressive enough to bother with. One is a very good to great idea that's worth more thought.

So I have to say for these screenwriters who say you have to write 8 scripts before you write something good, well, I'm unsure what that means. Structure? Form? Characters? Dialogue? Surely the kernel of the idea they had must have been good, otherwise why write it? If it's purely a matter of not knowing the craft yet, that can be fixed in rewrites. Same with bad dialogue. *shrug*
 
IMO- If you write a truly GREAT script, you will either:

-Find investors willing to back you if they think you have the chops to direct it.
-Find a buyer for your script that will produce it, but only with an accomplished director.
-Have success entering in festivals and win money for production.

If someone offered you $100k for your script, you would turn them down? Common. Are you nuts? Who's to say they'll change everything and butcher it, anyway? What if A-list stars were interested? That could be your big break. Unless you're independently wealthy, that's ridiculous and naive.

I don't want to discourage you, but judging by the writing in your posts, I'd say you have a ways to go. Maybe I'm totally wrong and you're a great screenwriter. Or, you might have a great concept and outline, but turning that into a great script is a whole different animal entirely. It may take you 8 tries, or only 2, maybe more, or possibly never. Keep writing though, and get some work out there, like in the Scriptfest here. Feedback will help hone your craft and find out if people connect to your writing.
 
Tim, all due respect, I'm a professional writer and have been for nearly a decade now. I've written two books and contributed an essay to another book on the film industry. I have a lot of writing experience. Forum writing is not formal writing; it never should be. Even then, I write properly wherever I write, and certainly my writing online is a higher caliber than most people simply because I can't tolerate the "omg i wrote a screenplay and u all shud read it cuz its amazin'" But what does forum writing have ANYTHING to do with writing a screenplay?!

And in your example, yes, if A-list stars were interested, it would give the biggest possible audience to my story, and that would be highly desirable, even if significant changes were made to the script, *provided the theme and message, the underlying story, was preserved*. I'm not stubborn about changes at all, they are good, so long as someone doesn't come along and totally ruin it.

I am independently wealthy, so no, it's not ridiculous and naive. I have the money to produce whatever I've written myself; doesn't mean I want to take that risk and waste my money, but it does mean I'm not going to take the first paycheck I'm offered simply because it's money. I don't need money. I'd like more of it, who wouldn't? But I won't sacrifice my larger life goals for a few bucks that isn't substantial. $100K isn't substantial. It's a few bucks, but won't change my life whatsoever. Only the success of the screenplay could do that, whatever work comes from it after that, etc. It would be a launching pad, it would not be a real payday. Now $1 million, that's different. That's some real cash you can at least do something with. $100K is a yawn. That's a year living in L.A. That isn't going to impress me much.
 
Wow. You're in a whole other league than me. I could probably live for 8 years on 100k. anyway-

If you have the cash, but consider producing your OWN work a 'waste of money' then why would anyone else want to put money into it?

To get back to the original question- I think it might be a good measuring stick to enter it into festivals, so you can believe in it and feel better about putting your money behind it, (or take it back to the drawing board). You also may attract other investors. Of course, I have no experience with such things, and have yet to complete a feature script of my own, so it's all speculation on my part. :)

If you have a script that you're proud of, you're confident you can direct it, have the money.. then what's to stop you? Just go for it.
 
No no, I didn't mean "waste of money" as in like it would be a bad thing, but let's say you know you COULD make a film for $250,000, does that mean you necessarily should? Like you said, what if you could get A-list actors? Your audience size is going to be far larger, and I'd rather take 65% of my vision where lots of people could see the film, and get the idea, than 100% of my vision with the DVDs mostly sitting in my friends' places ;) If you get my point. Plus the general idea with filmmaking is not to risk your own money, just one of those things. I'll make an exception of course, for my career, I already have a script I wrote that I'll be directing next year, at least that's the plan.

Yeah, see I think that it'd be a good measuring stick too. I like what this one book said, it may be harsh, but I liked it, tell me it like it is! The book said, "If you can't be a finalist in a screenplay competition with amateur writers, how do you expect to win the attention of agents and studio executives?" I paused. Good point! lol.

I would never send out less than my best work, though. Another screenwriter said, "Make sure your script is perfect. Not perfect by external standards, as it is art, but perfect as in it's the absolute best you can make it." That's what I want, at least, so I'm personally really pleased with it. I have nothing near that level yet, just a few rough drafts. Lots of work needed. I like what I have, it's great raw material, but it needs fine tuning, every detail should be carefully looked at again and again.

What you said last, though, totally true -- once I have the script I'm proud of, I mean once I whip this one comedy into shape that is to be my first feature, I'll absolutely direct it. I just have to spend the time this year to get it into that great shape, and say to myself, "Ok, it's ready." Plan is to shoot in about 9 months from now.

$100K for 8 years?! Whoa do you live at home? That's... that would be impressive. My overhead is more on the order of $10,000/month. But that's also because I run a company, I have one employee, that alone is $3K per month, plus $8K per year on insurance, my condo is $3,000/month for mortgage, HOA dues, and property taxes. Additional living expenses at least $2K per month. It sucks but it is what it is, L.A. is very expensive. So there's not much choice for me but to make a lot of money to afford it all, haha, or move back home and reduce expenses. I figure I could buy a small condo outright, that would reduce living expenses to a few hundred bucks on HOA dues, ditch the company if it didn't succeed, and reduce some other expenses here and there. I could probably live on $2,000/month in that situation, but still I don't see less than that being possible.
 
Jon - here are the averages:

It takes about 9 scripts before you sell 1 - why? It's like combat, you don't understand how to feint at the right moment until you're use to fighting. Same with writing, unfortunately, it's a learning curve. MANY will dream the dream but not hone the skills. Even if you don't have the innate talent, screenwriting can be learned just like art can be learned (several famous artist worked hard on their paintings, not having the innate talent from birth).

Will every screenwriter who writes 9 scripts sell 1? - No.

They don't learn the 'concepts' or don't have the 'execution' or their imagination is 'generic' or a whole host of other reasons.

So which screenplays sell?

ORIGINALITY.

Something we've not seen before or something that 'provokes' the reader to turn each and every page.

Where do screenwriters get stuck?

Second Act - always, always, always the second act. They gear up and set up correctly, but the second act falls apart because they don't have enough 'meat' to their storyline (reversals, irony, theme, etc.).

You are a successful prose writer, now you must convert your brain to write in a differnt format where

LESS IS MORE

to where you execute the storytelling quickly and yet visually with originality.

Pacing - beginning writers read slow as molasses.

Tone - beginning writers 'force' a voice to their story.

Content - generic or poorly executed.

***

You've stated you've written so I then ask you to write a script all the way through, polish it all within 3 months.

You may have the luxury of time in prose, but you do not in scripts. There are contracts with deadlines and those deadlines must be met. I know a pro who currently is contracted to write 2 scripts and he is on the crunch on meeting both deadlines: one an adaptation to a book, the other original.

It is good that you don't financially 'need' to support yourself in screenwriting. You must however note you won't have time management on your side.

I'm not a pro, but am available for feedback when you need.
 
Time management, lol...

I wrote my last script in a day ;) 21 hours, 45 minutes, with a 4-hour nap thrown in for good measure, 95.5 pages. It has been revised once so far and is at 99 pages now. It should settle in somewhere around 102 to 103 I think, maybe it'll be taken back down to 100, not sure.

I don't have any problem working fast, I far prefer it actually. I wrote my first screenplay in 8 days, and based on what some people said, that seemed like it was fast. To me, I felt it was slow, I messed around a ton in that time period and sort of delayed parts of the writing, and still did it in 8 days while doing a lot of other stuff in there too. Screenplays are tiny. My last one at 99 pages is still just 21,500 words. My first book was 90,000 words and my last one was 130,000 words. Like one screenwriter said in this book, it just shouldn't take you that long to write a screenplay. Six months, for instance, for a rough? Makes no sense. Like he said, 3 pages a day for 40 days is 120 pages. And 3 pages per day is really, really slow. So it's not really understandable how you can take writing seriously and take that long to write anything, in my opinion. I prefer to work fast.

I'm slower on the outline, though, I want a really good outline for something before I am ready to write it into a script. I wrote the last outline in 5 days, so that's pretty fast too, but still a lot slower than 1 day ;) And the previous outline took weeks, figuring out a lot of details, working through problems. It didn't seem to come as naturally.

I can clearly see why you would need to write more, but I disagree with the idea that somehow there is some number of scripts before one is going to be good. That's total and utter, complete nonsense. The first script you write should be great work, if you're doing your job. But it won't be great work by itself, immediately. What I'm saying is before I even shoot my first script, I'll have 5 scripts done, perhaps more, but I'm hoping for 5, I will have polished them each at least a decent amount, especially several of them. That process and the added writing process will benefit all of them. So sure, you could have to write 9 scripts before you sell 1, that wouldn't be unusual at all. But it's not fair to say, "The first 8 will suck, the 9th will magically be good." Wrong. Your first script could be the best, or the sixth could be the best. It's written words, they can be re-arranged and re-written constantly.

The only thing you're saying if you say that your first 3, 5, 7, 10 scripts "suck" is that you think it's impossible for anyone to have a good, original idea without having written a lot of scripts. That's absolutely wrong. Having a great idea has NOTHING to do with having written a single script before. It has everything to do with being a creative, original thinker, and understanding what has been done before. My screenwriting will continue to improve through doing it, my understanding and quick grasp of conventions, use of wording, and having the experience in a variety of situations will definitely be improved. It gets easier. I know from my non-fiction writing, the more experience I gained, the better I understood how to do it all.

But that being said, my first book isn't much less quality than my second book. It just took me a lot longer to write the first one, even though it was much shorter. By the time I did the second, I understood exactly how to lay it out, working from a superior outline, and had better research methods. I also never got stuck on the writing process -- I was fully confident. I had gotten one of New York's top literary agents (who represents Leonard Maltin, among many others) after I wrote my first book, so I was confident I had the skills to write a good book and that I had the dedication to finish one, because I had already done so before. The same has applied to screenplays. The first was the toughest because it was very new to me, I had never written a feature-length script. Then the second, I wrote in a day, because I knew just how easy it is if you really see the film in your head and you watch these characters. I had someone ask, how can you write something creative that fast? Well, it was creative, sure, but in my mind by the time I went to write that all out, I wasn't sitting there thinking "Hmm ok so if he says this, then... what would the other dude say? Let's see... he would... umm... he'd say.. Grr, this is tough!" No, I felt like I was watching the characters interact, and just transcribing what I saw, so it wasn't some forced, backbreaking process, it was really enjoyable, like watching this story unfold in an interesting way. The only time it became analytical and forced was during a particular ritual that I wasn't familiar with (religious) and had to look up to get just right. That was the only time I felt like I wasn't really seeing things, just having to make them up.

Definitely, though, I love screenwriting. I think it's wonderful, and a lot of fun, and if someone told me you will never sell a script, I wouldn't care, I know I will make these stories into films myself one day, at least some of them, and the process for me is tons of fun. So it's not about whether my odds are bad, or whether most people never make it, etc. I think it's a sad reason to write because you want to "make it" one day and you expect some big pay day. I just write in general because I love to write. I didn't make anything on my first two books. But I got a lot of great reaction from them, fans writing in telling me how much they loved the books, seeing the positive reviews, etc. Just writing them was really fun, holding a finished book in your hand. You don't have that with screenwriting, but you do have this joy of feeling like you are creating a world and these characters within it, and that's a great experience! Sure, sometimes it's tough... but it's a lot of fun too, I wouldn't do it otherwise.

Charli -- thanks very much for the offer, for sure. What I want to do a lot more of before I set about doing a lot more revisions is to read many more screenplays. I may be a film buff, and a solid writer, but my actual practical experience reading other screenplays is insufficient. I've had to do it for several classes, but never enough. I want to read a lot of good stuff and hopefully a lot of bad stuff so I can know why, haha. I've read a lot of books already, some of the classics, but I'm not going to lie... most all of what I've read seems pretty obvious to me. I don't understand how most writers are so bad, it just doesn't seem like it's that difficult to get basics right. The hard part should be a great story, not spelling, grammar, and obvious things like writing what you can't see on screen, etc.

Ryan -- you shouldn't give up after one try! haha, lots of people don't do well on their first effort with festivals in general. I really like having external validation of what I'm doing, feedback from other people who can give me an idea where I'm headed and whatnot. I can't wait to workshop my first screenplay with my two actors, who have agreed to do on-camera readings after we go over a lot of the script to improve it, etc. It's a great process, lots of fun, I don't take it personally by any means. The goal is to get the best script possible in the end, after all.
 
If you have not written, published or directed before, it is prudent to start off with a smaller project. Do that one. Do another, and then I think your concepts of what the film industry is all about will be tempered by experience rather than relying only on speculation.

An obvious exception would be if your project is time-dependent and must be released in order to ride some current market or news events.

You are obviously enjoying an intellectual exercise and learning a lot, which is certainly not all bad. Risk your ego in some contests. You may be brused, but you will learn from the results. I have found in my writings, 13 books, that originality and timing were very important; but marketing was the most significant factor in making my products commercially successful.

The craft of screenwriting is a lot to take on in only a few years. To also produce, direct and self-market more than a minor movie project is very challenging. In brief, you are going to need some help along the way and the sooner you make contact with people you can trust, the faster your project will progress and the more successful it is likely to be. Contests are a way to start forging these vital links.

You are now working alone. Learn to bring more people into your vision of whatever your project is. This will not only expand your view, maybe change some ideas and increase the chances of your project being successfully marketed to a large viewer audience. I do not like to do this either. I have now learned to get away with this single-source approach (me) with books so far as the writing goes, but I have found that I need the input from many others to sell more than a few copies to relatives - regardless of the worth of the books or their contents. To launch a screenplay into a movie you are going to have to bring in others to boot it along to a successful conclusion.

Loosen up your ego a bit. For your personality type this will be hard. You will find when you do that you will learn how to better mold things in the direction that you want them to go while still allowing valuable inputs from others. Most beginning writers go through this stage. In letters to the editor, essays and books you can carry these along by yourself. Making films that have any degree of complexity requires others with specialized skills to be brought into the project. Some of these people can, and should, make valuable contributions to the movie.

Screenplays are also never "finished" until the movie is shot. They are best thought of as "works in progress," rather than completed objects, like a book. Becoming more accustomed to this flexable approach will probably require that you get some experience by writing and producing smaller films, before you jump off with this project. Most writers with their "pet protects" reach the stage that, "It might not be as perfected as it could be, but it is time to shoot it and get on with something else." I rather suspect that you will too. I write books in three months. If you spend more than three years on your first screenplay without selling it or getting it into some sort of pre-production stages, it is probably time to move on to another. The inability to let go of a project is one reason than many would-be screenplay writers never get their works produced. This can get excessive. I have found that I have learned from each of my projects, even those that failed, and moved on. Some I have revisited years later with success.

Get it done. Get it out there in contests. Get it filmed.

Good luck,

hoveysmith
 
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Jon - you write fast, that's good on your side, but do you write a script 'well' is yet to be determined.

The quickest I've written a script was 6 weeks. Now two years later it will probably take half the time because I'm more 'familiar' with the process.

Why does it take a screenwriter to 'get it' - when you took driving school did you get how to drive right away? Did you panic at oncoming trafffic?

Any SKILL takes a degree of time to understand and APPLY concepts well. I know a guy who sold his third script. I know a guy who sold his first script. It varies.

I don't understand why you want to write 5 scripts? I say write 2, one for practice and then get to it. The rest is just procrastination which all writers do well.

You do have a big ego which will work well for you to a degree in meetings, but the truth is, every script sold is rewritten by at least 10 other writers.

The current pro I know was asked off the project because the 'actress' didn't want to deal with him anymore, so a writing duo was hired to rewrite the story.

"Swordfish" was written by one guy and rewritten by same guy but those circumstances are rare in how things are practiced in Hollywood.

From what it sounds like is that you want to take the Indie route: write/direct/produce your own script like Robert Rodriguez. If that suits you, great, go for it.

But please don't belittle other writers who struggle everyday to get their stories in some semblance of decent execution. You see, they love writing too. They may not write WELL but they love the process even if it does not lead them to any type of success.

Writers write because they love it. Nothing wrong with that, my friend.
 
Misunderstandings

Misunderstandings

I feel there are some misunderstandings here, and I suppose that can only have been caused by something I wrote unclearly or stated wrong.

Absolutely, no, I wouldn't mean to belittle anyone else's hard work! I just know from experience that if you want to get something done, you really have to make it a priority and focus hard on it. It's NOT easy to bring that focus to the table, but you have to kind of kick your own butt and make yourself get into gear, haha. It's tough! I've struggled the last year with fatigue issues related to a medical condition, so it has been even tougher at times. But you have to push through, especially if you love writing!

Of course the question is always how well something is done, not how fast. I just enjoyed the process a lot of writing it faster, because I was able to let it flow better. Everyone else's results may vary. Others may love just focusing on one scene per day, and also someone else may like writing a better first draft and having fewer revisions, whereas my style is more to write a functional first draft and have more revisions. It just depends.

I'm confused, perhaps because it's the screenwriting forum, why certain assumptions are being made that are just not true... I didn't feel like I wrote something that indicated that, but perhaps I should have stated clearly where I am.

How is it procrastinating to write 5 scripts? Writers, especially screenwriters, should have lots of material! Even most screenplay books recommend this. Don't pin all your hopes on a single script. And there is no procrastination, either, that's what I'm trying to say -- my first feature is to shoot in 9 months roughly. If I have only 2 scripts done, that one and another, it still shoots. If I have 12 done, well that's nice, good for me. Primarily I own a small media company, with one other employee (my head of sales), and I do corporate video work, so how busy I am with that is what decides how much time I have to write. When I'm not working on company business, I'm writing. So it'd be a good thing to be too busy to finish 5 screenplays -- it would mean more cashflow, which I like! haha.

Also the previous post can't have been directed at me -- I'm a direct-producer first, I just got into screenplay writing on a more formal level. I've had my work selected to 27 film festivals and I'm a multiple award-winning director. My primary focus was music videos initially, now my first professional short is on the festival circuit; it was nominated for three awards at Action on Film for instance, Best Comedy, Best Cinematography, and Best Produced Screenplay. So I'm well accustomed to working with a team of people, and well used to how a script changes during the creative process. None of this is new to me. In fact on the first script I completed here, I've been workshopping it from the idea stage through the outline stage with my lead actor, who I worked with on The Devil's Matchmaker, my first pro short. I've also had help from his girlfriend, my friend (and how I met him), who is a professional actress on a variety of indie projects, commercials, etc. Both are rising stars, and when I get the script into a shape I'm happy with for them to see, then we're going to workshop i together. Screenwriting can be a very collaborative process, especially compared to what I was used to with non-fiction writing, and that does take some getting used to but it can be a blast too! I love watching how what I have changes, for the better, with more ideas and more viewpoints given. I have had good experience with my work getting even better given the proper advice, even if I'm initially defensive or apprehensive about the changes, I always come to see a better way to do it than what I had and that is a wonderful part of the process.

I think perhaps it was assumed I'm a screenwriter-wannabe in isolation sort of writing up some material dreaming about film? That is not the case. I'm a professional in the industry, I've been directing and producing now for several years professionally anyway, and while I have MUCH to learn, and a lot of growth ahead of me, it's an exciting, fun process and the collaborative elements of filmmaking are wonderful. It's very different from me coming from a background of just non-fiction writing more in isolation, but I think my favorite part as a director at least, and partially as a producer, is watching as a lot of creative, talented people come together to create this piece of art that is more than just the efforts of any one or two people. I like how you can look at a short film, for instance, a good one anyway, and a whole group of people have added their touches to it, so that it really becomes more than what it was on the page when it was just a script.

Also I'm surprised some screenwriters can be as good as they are without having seen the whole process through more often, as far as just how magical it is when great actors bring something to your characters and your dialogue that wasn't there before. I've seen lines that on the page I thought were just ok, that I had written, become way funnier and more interesting when a talented actor got ahold of them. That's an important thing to understand, I think, that lines on a page are not nearly as full of life as when they are delivered by a talented performer.

So... if there were any misconceptions, I'm sorry about that. I'm definitely NOT working alone, haha, I have a lot of people I trust with whom I work on numerous projects, I'm just new to the world of feature script writing. I had written a number of short scripts before, some alright, some bad, a few good. I think it unquestionably takes a lot of hard work and effort to become a great screenwriter, doesn't it for everything? I know I'm not a great director yet. It's just that as a writer, I have a lot more relevant background experience than I do as a director. I have at least been writing in some form professionally for nearly 10 years, whereas directing, only about two years of professional experience where I really was turning out good work. That's not a long time, and my confidence as a director has a long ways to go. I'm certainly confident, however, of being able to create quality, professional work, as since I started doing so I have not looked back. It's just a matter of making increasingly complicated projects with greater and greater demands, with a feature film being quite the challenge. That's why I'm excited for this first one because at least I know my two lead actors, I've worked with them before, I know they are excellent (the actor won Best Actor earlier this year at a big film festival, while another festival director who selected my film was talking to me about how talented he is and how he's going places, etc.), and more than that, they are actually dating so I know they have the chemistry to play the roles I want, haha. That's almost like cheating, but it works, and it takes a lot of guesswork out of my first feature directing gig, which I think is good because I'll have enough on my plate trying to make a really solid film for a tiny budget. I'm sure it'll be the greatest challenge I've faced.

The only way you ever get better at anything, by the way, is trial and error, and constructive criticism, so anyone whose ego is too big to listen to the advice of other people, especially better, more experienced people, is not going to go very far in my experience. I didn't start writing essays in school and magically become great at writing overnight. I got constant feedback and criticism from teachers, and after tons of writing, tons of reading, and practice, practice, practice, eventually I became good enough where I could at least get someone to pay me for my work! haha. But the only place where success comes before work is in the dictionary ;) Constructive criticism, while it may sting a bit at the time (we all wish we were perfect at whatever we do, lol), is great, and should be encouraged. I think my main point before was merely that if you had written 9 scripts, your first one may have a great idea, it just may have subpar execution, and in that case if you're willing to integrate feedback and use your newfound knowledge from all of your experience, you should be able to punch it up to a great script. It's all about the idea. I don't think a bad idea is going anywhere, but I think if your idea is really solid, you should be able to learn how to execute it properly given enough practice, hard work, dedication, etc.
 
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Dang, how do you guys work so fast with your full time jobs and all?

I was on break from working as an editor for about 3 months and it took me 6 weeks to write my first script since I didn't know the craft. I started writing the 2nd draft when I got back into work shooting and editing 12 hours a day. It took me only 4 weeks after work and on the weekends since I knew the craft a tad better than before. Then again, it helps to only live 10 minutes away from the school I shoot/edit at :P

I was thinking about entering these screenwriting contests once I felt ready, but I dunno what good "Bob's garage screenwriting contest" would do for me.
 
Ryan - HA HA HA omg that was so funny!

Jb - I misunderstood, I thought you were going to write 5 scripts before you even try to sell one script.

Will Wheeler worked and reworked one script, won the Sundance Lab and he's the guy who wrote, "The Hoax." He's philosophy is to work on one script and one script only and make it the best it can possibly be.

I don't think that works for everybody.

I know a guy who was a reader for one of the major studios and his process was to write an entire draft and then completely change everything in the second pass, like writing a whole new script. That process worked for him.

If you're going to produced all of your scripts, more power to you.

If not, all I'm saying is if you are half as good as you say you are, you should be able to sell the second one.

The guy I know currently working on two scripts for a studio sold his third script.

I'm just saying.

I've written three. Concepts for all might sell, execution of all three not there.

Currently I'm writing two scripts and both concepts and execution I think will sell. I finally got it.
 
That's awesome! Well it's trial and error, and I think if your first three have good ideas, you really should go back and work on them more and pump up the execution. I feel the same way currently, as far as I think I have some great material, I even love the layout of most of the scenes, I just don't love the dialogue in the first script. I actually like it quite a lot in the second, not to say it's polished, but it has good potential, it's already "working," but in the first script it's hit and miss. Parts are good, I really like. Other parts... I'm not at all a fan of and they need reworking. But it's a ROUGH draft still not even a first, so I'd be worried if I had 10 drafts and it was like this but right now it's just part of the process.

Ryan -- that was hilarious. I can tell Ryan has a good sense of humor, lol.

Yeah, well one thing I've learned from reading screenwriting books and articles is that there seem to be a lot of different opinions on how to do things, and it seems like you really need to study this carefully to figure out what is personal style and what is unbreakable rules. Like let's say the first appearance of a CHARACTER being capitalized like that: a rule. But sounds being capitalized? Not a rule. Some say you should absolutely do it, others say it's distracting and you shouldn't care what the production script will look like -- not your job. So that's style. There are so many other instances of that.

If you read 101 Habits of Successful Screenwriters, or something like that, I'm blanking on the exact title, but it's 101 habits something rather, and has a lot of advice from successful screenwriters, I think about a dozen of them, most agree you should never work on just one project at a time. Most agree that the sweet spot is 2, others think you can be working on even more than that. It seems to depend what their style is, but basically one guy said he actively works on two at once to keep them fresh, others seem to do exactly what I gravitated towards doing naturally -- writing one, outlining another. I thought I was distracting myself and doing something wrong, but I just started writing down some quick outline notes on my 2nd script when I was writing the first. So now what I'd like to do is before I launch into a third outline, I'm thinking over some ideas I have for the next few scripts, letting them sit, then I'm revising the first two. I think it's unwise to move on and not be actively working on the ones that are unfinished. So I'd like to get both of these into several more drafts, register them with the copyright office, and then be refining them at a slower, more gradual rate as I'm working on scripts 3 and 4, and by the time that's done it's likely the 1st one will be fully polished and ready to be shot. For me I look at it kind of like establishing a pipeline of material, and I also don't know whether I'll have this luxury of time in the future.

If my business starts to take off more, which right now we're kind of on the cusp of some deals *fingers crossed*, I may not have much time for writing if my sales lady starts to fill that pipeline and I'm keeping busy. That means I'll have little time for new material, and then I'll be shooting a feature, editing the feature, marketing the feature, and I worry that at that point it's tough to squeeze in time for writing. But if I already had 4-5 scripts of material set aside, where they just needed further tinkering, or where a few were at least ready to be sent out and the other few were still undergoing some work, that'd be an ideal situation. Then if someone asked what's next? after my first feature, I could at least confidently respond, "Well I'm working on launching another feature, I have a few scripts I wrote, and I'm looking to find interest for them," etc. At least you have a clear answer and you know where you are headed. Even better than one of them is the same genre as the feature will be, so if I found a distributor I could get a good relationship going perhaps and have another script ready to be shot. Just ideas, but never bad to plan ahead.

Having the time to write is a real luxury, though, and I want to use that time carefully and wisely because in my experience there are long stretches where I simply have other things to do.
 
From recent posts I see that you are far further along than I thought. Bring someone else in to help work the script with you, if you think you need that as a confidence measure.

If you don't need that kind of help, then take the plunge, raise the money and film it. Since you are really serious about this business, even if this effort should be an absolute flop, what you learn for the next project will likely be worth the costs. Some scripts are better than others, but a perfect one is not likely to ever exist.

Sorry about the suggestions for beginners. These are valid, but you have apparently already gone through all of that.

hoveysmith
 
lol, no problem at all Hovey, you were just trying to help!

Well definitely I would love to get some help from the two people I trust, my actors, because it's very rare in my experience and difficult to find people who you trust who give great advice. I would say with most actors, you know, maybe their advice will be limited, they're actors, they're not screenwriters, etc. But in this case, both have a LOT of other talent and ambitions. The guy has produced and written his own pilot for instance, the girl helped me co-produce my short film and has written children's books too, so they're both just very artistic, talented people. I have been amazed at the great advice I've already received from him. In fact I came up with the idea because of them, while at the awards party at a film festival, and when I wrote a short script I wasn't really happy with it at all. I kind of got it done, sorta, and was confused because it was part drama, part comedy, it really wasn't working to my mind. I wanted to see what was wrong with it, was I onto anything valuable at all or just scrap this idea? He said basically it was a strong idea, but "You're not done writing." He put in my head that maybe, who knows, I might have a feature. I wasn't sure. So I started asking questions of myself, "Well, ok, if this were a feature then what? What would happen? What could make this material work?" As I realized, it was already becoming too long of a short, it was crammed into 11 pages, which is in my mind basically borderline too long for a comedy short anyway, I like to keep them shorter. My first was 7 pages and really worked, it just felt like a short, it couldn't be a feature. This one, I wrote in my e-mail to him, I hated the girl because she was a cardboard cutout, a stereotype, not in any sense an interesting character. He agreed and said basically she needed to be developed into a real person. So with that came the realization that this can't be done in a short, it has to be a feature, and that's what led me to work through an outline bouncing some ideas off him at the start, then just going for it.

They're both currently waiting for me to finish a draft I consider acceptable to show them, but I'm a ways off. I just really started redoing this thing last night, making script notes, making changes. I'm actually impressed, somehow in my mind I end up making something worse than it was as time passes. Like I write it, think it's pretty good, then as time goes on and I don't see it, it becomes less and less good, or in need of more work. So I started reading it again last night and found myself laughing a bunch, it's not that far off! There is definitely a LOT of work that needs to be done (the descriptions are non-existent or terrible, I was lazy, just trying to pump out a rough draft and since I already know what my two leads are like, I didn't even bother describing them, which I still want to do; it's not professional as it is, looks lame). Also the page count problem -- it was 76 pages -- will be fixed just by editing. I thought, hmm, well, I can live with an 85 page script, because I figure that'll be 90 minutes when I add credits and whatnot, and even if it was 80-something minutes, I can find distribution with that. It's ok. But the reason it's 76 pages isn't because there's not enough material I've realized -- it's because the script is WAY too heavy on dialogue. It needs a lot more description of actions and when that is added, it'll be 85 pages at least, plus some stuff I was going to add anyway. So that's fantastic.

I think as I rewrite this thing again and again I'll get more excited about filming it too.

For now I'll just keep plugging away and the goal needs to be to have this script in top shape by year's end, so that we can move on pre-production about 4 months before we'd want to shoot. I think that's a fair timeline, from what I understand. Especially because we have minimal locations that are difficult to obtain, I already have my DP, my top actors, so it's a matter of attaching a producer (I think I have him, if he's available), hopefully finding a B lister or two, we need these for distribution, and working out some location details for reasonable prices.
 
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