School sucks

Re: School sucks

[quote author=Shaw link=board=Offtopic;num=1105403878;start=45#59 date=01/12/05 at 21:36:36]Tlalconetl I hate to sound like I am disagreeing with you here (my opinion is pretty undecided at the moment) but for the sake of being the devils advocate:

I'm not entirely sure how you are connecting independence and maturity with not going to school.  Most people who don't go to school or drop out are miserable failures in life.  It is the very rare person who actually makes something of themself in this sort of situation.  If it were normal we wouldn't tell stories of how Einstien failed math in school etc.  I don't think it is therefore a viable route NOT to go to school.  It is useful though we know it isn't perfect.  Mature people are those who can deal with the system; those who can see the bigger picture.  It is the mature people who succeed.  Whether schools stifle maturity is a very complex problem and I haven't seen any real evidence to support and conclusion yet.

Keep in mind that freedom does not come from the ability to do whatever you want.  It comes from structure and rules.  [/quote]

It’s quite simple. The more you are free and trusted to make your own decisions, the more mature, responsible, and independent you will become. And the earlier in life you are allowed and encouraged to act upon your life, the sooner and quicker you will mature and develop confidence.

Now I’m not saying that a 5-year-old is ready to tackle the world on his/her own. But even a 5-year-old can be trusted to do certain things, like go to the bathroom without asking for permission.

Some people who drop out of school may be miserable failures, but think about WHY they dropped out. Because they found school pointless, uninteresting, a waste of time. Because school FAILED to introduce them to anything worthwhile. Moreover, I know plenty of high school graduates who are miserable failures. And think about this:

The vast majority of kids spend 12-14 years in school and when they graduate from high school, they STILL don’t know what to do with their lives! How can this be? All those years of schooling and you still have no clue what you “want to be when you grow up”! This to me is a gross sign of immaturity. And the problem extends all the way through college.

High school doesn’t offer anything that is worth studying. There are exceptions, of course, but the exceptions prove the rule. And Einstien was not unique. Franklin, Washington, Farragut, Vidal, Kubrick, and countless others had very little or zero schooling. And all of them lead accomplished lives when they were teenagers!

I think that if you were to get rid of schools permanently, millions of Franklins, Farraguts, Kubricks, etc. would emerge. Someone once said that genius is as common as dirt. I agree. Schools suppress and deny “genius”. They don’t foster it.
 
Re: School sucks

Einstien was indeed unique! The pople you mention are very impressive people and are not the general rule by any shot.

You make a good point about maturity. I too have been known to comment that school is all about playing the system rather than intelligence. I, as you, know plenty of stupid people who graduated with good grades.

I'm however not entirely convinced that we should get rid of school. That seems like a rather extreme step. Human nature is, of course, to be lazy, to take the easiest road (just as with energy, water flowing etc). I'm not saying that this is the only option but it is certainly a very likely one. Now perhaps if we did something more like the europeans where students select a trade quite early in their schooling.
 
Re: School sucks

But you need a foundation to be able to make responsible decisions. Where do you recommend kids get that?

As far as citing examples like Einstein, I think that's ridiculous. Certainly there are people who can push themselves to excel, or have a gift. But I'm sure if you looked at the life of the vast majority of people who dropped out you would find them to be the rare exception. I hate to sound like this, because I am usually a f*ck the system kind of guy. I think our education system is all out of whack and needs some major changes. But for most people a formal education serves a purpose. DO you think that most parents have or would make the time to teach their kids the fundamentals of language, history, science and mathematics? All of which (IMHO) are building blocks to deciding what you want to learn more about. Most dropouts don't reach nearly the lofty heights of the people you mention.

I also think that schools need to be structured. I never found it humiliating to ask to go to the bathroom. I do know that in my HS, if you didn't have ask, 2/3 of the kids wouldn't be in the room at any given time.

We do put too much responsibility into our schools. This I believe. We practically expect them to raise our children. I had an exceptional professor who lectured extensively on the history of our education system and how it has shouldered more of the tasks that were once the onus of the family. Our system is imperfect. Should school be more of an open forum? Probably. Could it be more progressive? Definitely. But that doesn't mean the concept of a formalized education should be dismissed out of hand.
 
Re: School sucks

[quote author=Tlalconetl link=board=Offtopic;num=1105403878;start=60#60 date=01/12/05 at 22:25:18]
I think that if you were to get rid of schools permanently, millions of Franklins, Farraguts, Kubricks, etc. would emerge. Someone once said that genius is as common as dirt. I agree. Schools suppress and deny “genius”. They don’t foster it.
[/quote]

The geniuses who emerged is only a tiny fraction of the number of uneducated who now live in the streets, are in prison or are poverty stricken.

There is a direct correlation in our society between structured education and rates of poverty and crime. Eliminating schooling would be a disaster in our society.

Our public education system has many flaws and may very well be the wrong approach. However, I have known kids from the same high school take very different routes in their lives. I think the drive to be successful and a productive part of society is very internalized, and you can't blame everything on the nature our school system.
 
Re: School sucks

Right, Jim. That's where I don't agree with Tlalconetl. I do think that a public education is necessary, but it needs to be restructured and reformed.

I am in no way to praise the old system I grew up in, but it had some positive points. Someone mentioned the trade system. When I was a teenager my best friend went to a trade school (apprenticeship, actually), as did a neighbor of mine. I envied these guys because they were learning welding, fixing cars, building motorcycles from scratch from used parts, all that stuff that 15 years old boys like doing. That was education. Sure, it didn't teach them history and philosophy, but at that age they were not interested in it anyway.

This didn't preclude them from going to university and learning the higher stuff, either. I met a few people later in university who went to trade school, then spent a year taking night classes to get their high school matriculation, and then went on to university, becoming reasonably accomplished students. I think their teen-age time was spent in a more fullfilling way because they were not forced to do things they had no inclination for.

There is a mantra in North American society that you need a college degree to earn decent money. This drives a whole industry of both public and private colleges that 'prepare students for entering the workforce' (they don't), and the whole secondary school system is focused on preparing you for college (it barely does).

So, today's high schoolers are supposed to learn skills they 'may' need ten years from now. In 'computer studies', they learn Word and Excel, but don't learn hands-on electronics, which is thousand times more interesting and enjoyable, if you ask me.

This serves many purposes, one of them the government's propaganda about 'highly educated workforce', where everybody and their great-grandmother has a BA or BSc in something. Well that's BS too. The world only needs limited number of aerospace engineers, or lawyers. There is a finite amount of resources society has for developing its talent. The more college graduates we have the more thinly those resources are spent, and the result? General dumbing down of society. People with physics degrees cannot explain a simple phenomenon like the changing of seasons.

There is a balance to it, of course. Everyone who has the capacity should have the opportunity to go to college. But I am tired of hearing people say 'I am going to study this or that because it will give me such and such job'. It won't. Study what interests you. That will make you an educated and interesting person that others will like working with. THAT, and only that, will give you a job. Most jobs mean learning as you go anyway - so we are back where we started. High school should teach you how to learn, not a body of knowledge. If that's the case, why not to make it a bit more interesting?

End of rant.
 
Re: School sucks

Reading my post, I really think I need to make the shorter. Maybe that way I will reach Platinum faster ;).

(as in - shorter posts = more of them. I pity you guys. Someone lock me out, please!)
 
Re: School sucks

LOL

Yes we do focus on impractical issues too often. But the challenge in narrowing that scope is that you are exposed to less, which potentially narrows your vision of your own future. THe whole concept of college (in the Liberal Arts sense) as a precursor to the workplace mystifies me in many ways. I'm a pretty bright guy. I pick things up quickly, I have a fair amount of leadership skills, I communicate effectively, I am self motivated, and I have always been an asset anywhere I've worked. BUt I can't get a job doing anything but blue collar work, or entry level clerk stuff because I never finished college. I realize that companies need to set criteria to hire people, but it's a very narrow minded approach, and one which seems ineffective in the long run.

I do agree with Tlalconetl's staement about schools not fostering genius, and more often than not suppressing it. WHat some consider genius, they can consider a "problem". THat lies in the way our schools are structured, and frankly, I don't know how to fix it. As a parent however, I am a strong advocate of fostering your children's strengths and interests. Don't leave it up to the schools. That will certainly help solve the problem.
 
Re: School sucks

[quote author=Jim Brennan link=board=Offtopic;num=1105403878;start=45#51 date=01/12/05 at 17:02:36]It's good to see the faults that are present. Just don't be blind to the positives. [/quote]

The biggest positive: We have a very cool tv studio. I practically live there. (Where do you think I am now) Definitely fostering my interests.

Currently the biggest problem is the fact that our English teacher is a femminazi.
 
Re: School sucks

[quote author=Jim Brennan link=board=Offtopic;num=1105403878;start=60#62 date=01/12/05 at 22:43:13]But you need a foundation to be able to make responsible decisions.  Where do you recommend kids get that?

As far as citing examples like Einstein, I think that's ridiculous.  Certainly there are people who can push themselves to excel, or have a gift.  But I'm sure if you looked at the life of the vast majority of people who dropped out you would find them to be the rare exception.  I hate to sound like this, because I am usually a f*ck the system kind of guy.  I think our education system is all out of whack and needs some major changes.  But for most people a formal education serves a purpose.  DO you think that most parents have or would make the time to teach their kids the fundamentals of language, history, science and mathematics?  All of which (IMHO) are building blocks to deciding what you want to learn more about.  Most dropouts don't reach nearly the lofty heights of the people you mention.

I also think that schools need to be structured.  I never found it humiliating to ask to go to the bathroom.  I do know that in my HS, if you didn't have ask, 2/3 of the kids wouldn't be in the room at any given time.

We do put too much responsibility into our schools. This I believe.  We practically expect them to raise our children.  I had an exceptional professor who lectured extensively on the history of our education system and how it has shouldered more of the tasks that were once the onus of the family.  Our system is imperfect.  Should school be more of an open forum?  Probably.  Could it be more progressive?  Definitely.  But that doesn't mean the concept of a formalized education should be dismissed out of hand.[/quote]

Jim,
I recommend kids get their foundation from their parents. Not schools. And if your parents aren’t doing it, then you have only yourself, your common sense, and God (if you believe in one) to guide you. Life will initiate you regardless, but it’s best to learn about the demands of life as early as possible.

Those who succeed without schooling may be rare exceptions (although I really don’t think so). But it’s been my experience that kids who drop out and don’t succeed in life  were made that way by school. These kids were in many ways broken by the schooling experience and came to accept that they are failures. After all, school labeled them failures. So if school taught you that you are a dumb ass, then what’s the point of trying anything in life. You’re going to fail anyway. I hear it everyday in the classroom: “Oh, I’m not good at English, “I suck at Math,” etc.

But if you have developed or were born with a strong skin, a rock solid determination, a love for knowledge DESPITE school, then you will succeed. That’s the lesson that Franklin, Washington, and many successful people today teach.

As for getting parents to teach their children the fundamentals of language, history, science, etc.,  now you’re getting into the basic problem in the social structure of America. Parents work. They work hard. They have to work to pay for everything. So they rely on schools to teach their kids and give them the proper foundation.

But few parents understand that the goal of public school is to train children to be servants to business and government. It’s not to liberate their minds and unleash their personal genius. So what we’re talking about here is not school reform but a radical restructuring of our society and economy—a restructuring that would allow parents to truly teach their kids, to be with them during their formative years and not have to send them off to a government institution (i.e. school) at the age of 5 because mom and dad have to go to work to pay the rent!

Too radical, right?

If you can afford to take your kid out of school, my God, do it now! Or at least keep them home for the first 8 years of their life. Make them confident, determined, passionate, and compassionate in these crucial years, so that by the time you send them off to school, they will know how to truly defend themselves from the damage school will try to inflict on them.

BTW, most high school students don’t find it humiliating to ask a teacher for permission to use the bathroom. And that’s because they are so conditioned not to think about the nature of what they are asking. It is the rare student who truly understands the humiliation inherent in having to ask such a question.
 
Re: School sucks

You definitely raise some good points, but I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on others. One of the greatest things about our society is a wide spectrum of viewpoints. Now if we could only get people to discuss them in a practical and efficient manner, sans emotional and personal tirades (as we seem to have done here), we would probably solve more of our world's ills.
 
Re: School sucks

[quote author=Tlalconetl link=board=Offtopic;num=1105403878;start=45#52 date=01/12/05 at 18:40:14]

Never heard of him. But if he's against cumpulsory schooling, then he must be cool.

[/quote]

He and Joe Rogan replaced Kimmel and the other guy on the Man Show. He has a schtick talking about highschool(loosely quoting):

"Highschool teaches you what? Fear, conformity, dont question authority, you're only as popular as your brand name and your haircut. They dont encourage you to be who you want to be, they encourage you to be what THEY think you should be. No teacher would tell you, you'd be cut out to be a great pornstar, or illegal arms merchant. I was a funny f-ck in school, and it never was encouraged, believe me, they never saw my natural ability, sat me down, taught me how to write a punchline or structure a segue--no, I went to counseling. If I didnt quit school, I'd be in a cubicle now."

A lot of his stand up is like this, which took a while to get used to since I like comedy which is a little less whiny and preachy, but after a while I became see his act from his point of view, just like what you wrote on this post. I totally hear what your saying, but I'd like to think there were some bright spots in highschool, not many, but some.
 
Re: School sucks

[quote author=sugahsean469 link=board=Offtopic;num=1105403878;start=60#71 date=01/13/05 at 14:21:52]

He and Joe Rogan replaced Kimmel and the other guy on the Man Show. He has a schtick talking about highschool(loosely quoting):

"Highschool teaches you what? Fear, conformity, dont question authority, you're only as popular as your brand name and your haircut. They dont encourage you to be who you want to be, they encourage you to be what THEY think you should be. No teacher would tell you, you'd be cut out to be a great pornstar, or illegal arms merchant. I was a funny f-ck in school, and it never was encouraged, believe me, they never saw my natural ability, sat me down, taught me how to write a punchline or structure a segue--no, I went to counseling. If I didnt quit school, I'd be in a cubicle now."

A lot of his stand up is like this, which took a while to get used to since I like comedy which is a little less whiny and preachy, but after a while I became see his act from his point of view, just like what you wrote on this post. I totally hear what your saying, but I'd like to think there were some bright spots in highschool, not many, but some. [/quote]

Sounds great. I should listen to his material.
 
Re: School sucks

[quote author=Tlalconetl link=board=Offtopic;num=1105403878;start=60#72 date=01/13/05 at 15:29:32]
Jim,
Thanks. Now if I can only express all this in my movie  ;)
[/quote]
Passion is the fuel, and you've got that ;D
 
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