EVA1: Scene file to match FS7?

S

Seanik

Well-known member
Does it exist? (is it a unicorn?)

I'm sure there are a few of you out there, as well, who must be banging your heads against the wall from time to time about clients/producers who are leery about mixing your EVA1 footage in a multi-cam shoot with an FS-7 (or two). What's your strategy?

As an editor, too, mine has always been to color it myself (because I have been lucky enough to get the job of editing/grading most of these projects), and I've found that it really isn't terribly difficult. However, a big/regular client of mine has recently been so busy (dividing up labor in such a way that I'm not always editing my own multi-cam projects) that I haven't lately had this luxury. And now, my EVA1 is put into question as something that is "incompatible" with all of the FS7's that they hire. I find this to be incredibly frustrating, especially since it only takes me 5-10 minutes at the most to match cameras (hell, it even takes me 5-10 minutes to match two FS7's)... and I am not exactly a legit colorist.

I'm wondering if anyone has come across (or developed) an in-camera solution that meshes well with the FS7, so that producers/clients can have some confidence that their editors can manage to figure out how to mix/match footage from both cameras?
 
Hello there.

I understand, as an EVA1 owner I also have had to deal with such ridiculous treatment of the camera simply because it is less known than others, funny considering it gives you a much better image than any FS7 you might throw at me.

Anyway, regarding your problem, what i did is I went to LUTCalc (https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/LUTCalc/index.html), chose Varicam35 as my camera and then set whatever settings i'l be using on set. Up to you to set it as V-log or rec709, not sure if this method will work if shooting in HLG however.

I then chose what settings that the sony cameras will be at, S-log2, S-log3, S-Gamut3.cine, etc, and finally generate a LUT based on all of those settings.

Import the LUT to your EVA1 and set it on your monitor and voila. As an added bonus you can even give your employers the LUT so their editors can just apply it to the EVA1 footage.

Is it a perfect solution? No but it will serve you reasonably well most of the time.

Hope this helps.
 
Raphael Madeira said:
Hello there.

I understand, as an EVA1 owner I also have had to deal with such ridiculous treatment of the camera simply because it is less known than others, funny considering it gives you a much better image than any FS7 you might throw at me.

Anyway, regarding your problem, what i did is I went to LUTCalc (https://cameramanben.github.io/LUTCalc/LUTCalc/index.html), chose Varicam35 as my camera and then set whatever settings i'l be using on set. Up to you to set it as V-log or rec709, not sure if this method will work if shooting in HLG however.

I then chose what settings that the sony cameras will be at, S-log2, S-log3, S-Gamut3.cine, etc, and finally generate a LUT based on all of those settings.

Import the LUT to your EVA1 and set it on your monitor and voila. As an added bonus you can even give your employers the LUT so their editors can just apply it to the EVA1 footage.

Is it a perfect solution? No but it will serve you reasonably well most of the time.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...


That's a great idea... I've used LUTCalc before, and I've made LUTs in Resolve, both with very good results.

However, I was under the impression that you can't import LUTs into the EVA1. I thought the only LUT available in-camera was the built in V-709 MLUT (V-log to Rec709), and that the only other way to "burn in" a look was via the Scene Files. Maybe I missed something? That would be incredibly helpful if I can do that! Are Scene Files really just LUTs, and are they in standard formats (e.g. .cube, etc.)?
 
My bad, I didn't explain myself properly in that regard, I completely forgot to mention you need a monitor that allows importing LUTS into it, I apologize for neglecting that detail and making it sound like you import it into the camera.

I tend to use my atomos shogun inferno with my EVA1 so I just import the LUT to that.

As for everything else you mentioned you are right on the money, you do have the scene files but they are not LUTs in the sense that they are not in standard formats and if I remember correctly I don't believe you can simply convert something like cube into scene files and use it much how you would use a LUT.

It's pretty strange not to have the ability to import LUTs to the camera when we can do something like that on a Panasonic GH5 but hey, still wouldn't trade my EVA1 for anything else short of an Alexa Mini hahaha.
 
Thanks Raphael, that makes more sense. No worries.

It seems to me that there is probably some round-about way of making a LUT from a Scene File, but not the other way around, given what a Scene File really is: a preset of paint settings, gamma, knee, etc. I'm probably going to have to ply an FS7-owner friend of mine with a few beers to convince him to spend an afternoon staring our cameras at a chip chart while we stare at scopes.

Again, I'm just putting it out there to see if anyone has attempted this, and if so, how successful was it? I'm also curious as to how consistent a Scene File match might be through different settings (ISOs, apertures, lenses, white balances, etc).
 
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you will get the best match if you shoot in CineEI and V-Log and apply ACES workflow in Resolve.

In three years with the FS7 I was testing a lot of scene files but I was not able to get an image ooc that came close to CineEI + LUT. When I tested the EVA1 I fell immediately in love with Scene2. I sold my FS7 and all accessories and purchased the EVA1.

I don't think you will find an out of camera match in scene settings that will please you.
 
Yes Clermond, I am in wholehearted agreement with you on using the ACES workflow for matching (any mix of cameras, actually). That's my method of choice. It's ridiculously easy, and it's ridiculously effective. Shoot in the highest DR and widest gamut available (S-Log3.Sgamut3.cine, V-Log/V-gamut, etc.), transform to, match and grade in a massive colorspace (ACES), monitor/export to Rec709... no problem. Even Lumetri isn't that difficult, but the level of control in Resolve/ACES is miles above.

Unfortunately, on the multi-cam projects where we have to hand off the footage to another editor (instead of editing it myself), a few producers, including the big boss, are telling me that matching the cameras becomes problematic. Describing my method(s) to pass along to other editors is futile (I may as well be speaking Sanskrit). So, I'm now either getting bumped from multi-cam shoots (that I'm not editing), or having to rent an FS-7 (which I will be doing over the next 3 days). The sad thing is, that I've proven time and time again to these folks that matching can be done well, so they know it's possible. It's just that they don't have confidence across their whole post-production pipeline. I should also add that my cam is the only non-FS7 in their freelance DP pool, so I can understand why they are not particularly compelled to enforce better camera matching and color grading practices in general on their other editors.

So, my thinking is that I need to find an in-camera solution somehow. In my latest attempt at this (on a 3 cam shoot with 2 FS7s), we decided to shoot straight up in Rec709 (I used Scene File preset 3 or 4 using "video" gamma) and I tried to paint the EVA1 to match the other cams on a chip chart. Unlike using a CCU, painting via the camera menu is a very slow process, and I just didn't have enough time to get to where I really needed to be (if that is even possible). I don't anticipate this to be a very practical method in future.

The alternative is to probably just end up buying an FS7 so I don't keep losing this work, or wasting comp on rentals. I see that the Mark I has dropped in price by a lot, and I may be able to pick up a used one for a bit less than that. It's just a bit maddening that this is even something I seriously have to consider... and to have to do so because of (willful) ignorance.

Meanwhile, I suppose I'll have to put on my (very loose fitting) engineer hat and give it my best shot in working out a Scene File, foolish and futile as it may be. I think you're right, Clermond, about not finding a satisfying result in this, however.

If anyone has any better ideas, I'm all ears/eyes!
 
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you can also try to drop the EVA1 on its head a couple of times - it might start matching the FS7.

Seanik said:
Yes Clermond, I am in wholehearted agreement with you on using the ACES workflow for matching (any mix of cameras, actually). That's my method of choice. It's ridiculously easy, and it's ridiculously effective. Shoot in the highest DR and widest gamut available (S-Log3.Sgamut3.cine, V-Log/V-gamut, etc.), transform to, match and grade in a massive colorspace (ACES), monitor/export to Rec709... no problem. Even Lumetri isn't that difficult, but the level of control in Resolve/ACES is miles above.

Unfortunately, on the multi-cam projects where we have to hand off the footage to another editor (instead of editing it myself), a few producers, including the big boss, are telling me that matching the cameras becomes problematic. Describing my method(s) to pass along to other editors is futile (I may as well be speaking Sanskrit). So, I'm now either getting bumped from multi-cam shoots (that I'm not editing), or having to rent an FS-7 (which I will be doing over the next 3 days). The sad thing is, that I've proven time and time again to these folks that matching can be done well, so they know it's possible. It's just that they don't have confidence across their whole post-production pipeline. I should also add that my cam is the only non-FS7 in their freelance DP pool, so I can understand why they are not particularly compelled to enforce better camera matching and color grading practices in general on their other editors.
You can also try pushing the EVA1 down a flight of stairs a couple of times maybe its will start looking more like the FS7.

you can also try dropping the EVA1 on its head a couple of time it might start looking like the FS7.

So, my thinking is that I need to find an in-camera solution somehow. In my latest attempt at this (on a 3 cam shoot with 2 FS7s), we decided to shoot straight up in Rec709 (I used Scene File preset 3 or 4 using "video" gamma) and I tried to paint the EVA1 to match the other cams on a chip chart. Unlike using a CCU, painting via the camera menu is a very slow process, and I just didn't have enough time to get to where I really needed to be (if that is even possible). I don't anticipate this to be a very practical method in future.

The alternative is to probably just end up buying an FS7 so I don't keep losing this work, or wasting comp on rentals. I see that the Mark I has dropped in price by a lot, and I may be able to pick up a used one for a bit less than that. It's just a bit maddening that this is even something I seriously have to consider... and to have to do so because of (willful) ignorance.

Meanwhile, I suppose I'll have to put on my (very loose fitting) engineer hat and give it my best shot in working out a Scene File, foolish and futile as it may be. I think you're right, Clermond, about not finding a satisfying result in this, however.
Click to expand...
 
Just a quick follow up to this old thread to let anyone who might also be in a similar situation (currently or in future) know that I have found a very workable solution (!!!).

First, a big thank you to Chris Young for bringing attention to this on a completely different thread (here).

The solution is actually fairly simple... some mad, benevolent genius created a set of LUTs that emulate ACES IDTs (links to .zip files can be found on this page at ACES Central). As Clermond mentions above, the best and easiest way I know of to match cameras is using the ACES workflow in Resolve. These ACES emulation LUTs allow not only non-ACES/Resolve users to benefit from the info in the ACES IDTs, it also allows me to "prove" that these cameras will match to a reluctant producer/DP, etc. on-set when used as MLUTs fed to production monitors.

So, my workflow using these emulation LUTs is one of the following:

Method 1 (the best)
- Load ACES LUTs in respective cameras/on-cam monitors* on-set, and feed to production monitor
- Paint EVA1 if necessary (usually not, but sometimes a little push of blue to magenta is needed to match the Sonys)
- Record in V-Log/S-Log, etc. as usual
- Send ACES LUTs to editor/colorist to apply in post for the match

Method 2 (for a quick turn and/or incompetent editor)
- Load ACES LUTs in respective cameras/external recorders* on-set, and feed to production monitor
- Paint EVA1 if necessary
- Bake in the LUTs to the recorded files
- Send baked clips to the idiot who will edit

*EVA1 does not allow importing of LUTs, so you will need an external monitor/recorder/lutbox that can do this.

One thing I also learned (which seems obvious to me now) is that you have to match the EVA1 to the FS7, and not the other way around. The FS7, with Sgamut3.cine, is still much narrower than Vgamut... so it's the least common denominator, in this case.

Apologies for taking so long to follow up on this. I wanted to see if this workflow is an actual practicable solution, and indeed, it is. Moreover, it is fairly simple for producers and editors to get their heads wrapped around and implement, because after all, they are the first and last mile in this chain.

Also, another thing to note is that in the ACES Central post where the links are, there is mention that these LUTs are not intended for post/grading. Maybe not for any medium level grading work or more, but they work wonderfully well for an editor who knows the very basics about grading, wouldn't go near Resolve (much less ACES), and has a heck of a time matching cameras with their three color wheels or RGB curves tools.

Hope this helps!
 
Thanks for the follow up Seanik and for linking this thread. I really liked the communication with Chris from my earlier time in the FS7 group before I switched to the EVA1.
 
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