Scene File Setup for HMC40

B

bradywurtz

Active member
Hey, i was wondering if anyone had any suggested settings for the 'Scene File Setup' options for the HMC40?

suggested settings for shooting indoors/outdoors?
film look/video look?

anything you've got!
 
I am still experimenting but here's what I have set for my two scene files - one is based on Barry Green's LoNoiz (I am still playing with it some) the other is based on some settings I saw for a sharp saturated look. I use the LoNoiz one when I need to bump the gain (i.e. low light) and the other when I have good light.

Scene File 1 (sharp saturated)
detail +2
vertical detail +2
detail coring +1
chroma level +2
gamma cinelike-v
matrix cinelike

Scene File 2 (LoNoiz)
detail -4
vertical detail 0
detail coring +7
chroma level -1
master pedestal -3 (I am still playing with this)
a.iris +2
gamma b.press
knee high
matrix norm1
skin tone detail on

This is still pretty experimental.
 
update?

update?

Rich, I've been using these scene files - thanks for posting them. I've only had the HMC40 for a couple of months and have not had time to experiment with changing them. Have you made further adjustments to them?
 
I haven't really experimented with scene files as yet. Does the LoNoiz scene file result in footage with noticeably less apparent noise when viewing? Is there a correspondingly noticeable loss of apparent image detail when viewing?
 
ddixon said:
Rich, I've been using these scene files - thanks for posting them. I've only had the HMC40 for a couple of months and have not had time to experiment with changing them. Have you made further adjustments to them?
Click to expand...
These are still my "go to" scene files. I have tried a few modifications, but I like the results from these.
 
Robert M Wright said:
I haven't really experimented with scene files as yet. Does the LoNoiz scene file result in footage with noticeably less apparent noise when viewing? Is there a correspondingly noticeable loss of apparent image detail when viewing?
Click to expand...
It's not too bad. I mostly shoot in 1080/24p but deliver in 720/24p (web) so there will be more loss in detail from that. So I (mostly) use scene file 1 outside (good light) and scene file 2 inside (low light).
 
I have had my HMC40 for two months, but haven't adjusted the scene files yet. This is helpful, especially LoNoiz. A couple of questions:

1) Out of the box, does the HMC40 default to one of the two scene files already programmed in the camera (or are there other default settings)?

2) Is it easy to reprogram the scene files to what you've listed above and then toggle between them when shooting low light or outside?
 
I really need to buckle down, do some serious experimenting, and learn this cam inside and out. I guess I sort of got spoiled from the get-go, because the camera shot such sweet images almost right out of the box, simply adjusting the fundamental stuff (shutter, aperture, gain, etc.) to suit circumstances. I haven't even touched scene files yet. I've simply never shot with a camera that yielded such stunning images so effortlessly - sort of made me lazy!
 
Robert M Wright said:
I haven't really experimented with scene files as yet. Does the LoNoiz scene file result in footage with noticeably less apparent noise when viewing? Is there a correspondingly noticeable loss of apparent image detail when viewing?
Click to expand...

Here's an example. Shot handheld, 1080/30p, LoiNoiz scene file as shown above, VERY contasty stage lighting, totally uncorrected color - this is just a still frame exported from Final Cut Pro that I sized to 50% in Photoshop.

This is a male teacher at our school in a wig at a lip-sync party for the student body the last day before xmas break last month - he was in the middle of the guitar solo in Pour Some Sugar On Me :smile:

Check the detail in the letters on the tshirt, stitching on the front of the denim jacket, etc. Don't go by the guitar strings - they were in motion.

I really don't understand gamma/pedestal settings, but this scene file also did an amazing job managing the contrast. There is a bad hot spot on the arm, but that's not very noticeable in the actual video, and is hugely better than the little Canon HF10 we were also shooting with in the back. The Canon totally blew out the highlights - the guy's whole head was white. You can even make out another teacher (she was the "drummer") at the bottom right corner.

The scene files are easy to set up and change between - see the manual.

x5aszy
 
That frame grab does look pretty good.

I'm guessing that adjusting the image with scene files, in a manner that essentially softens the image (even if just slightly), to compensate for noise when shooting in low light conditions, is likely no better than denoising in post, where you have a boatload more options and control over how you go about it. Softening the image in-camera is essentially irreversible (sort of a "shooting for dailies" approach). From a glance, it looks like that is essentially much of what the LoNoiz scene file probably accomplishes. I really do need to experiment...
 
Goldenplates said:
1) Out of the box, does the HMC40 default to one of the two scene files already programmed in the camera (or are there other default settings)?
Click to expand...

With the HMC40, you are always using one of the two scene files. Out of the box you are set to Scene file #1 which has all of the setting to their default values. I don't recall what Gamma Curve and Color Matrix were originally set. But you can easily reset them if needed.

Goldenplates said:
2) Is it easy to reprogram the scene files to what you've listed above and then toggle between them when shooting low light or outside?
Click to expand...

Well it is easy to switch, but unfortunately it requires that you cycle the power to switch. Not a big deal, but it is a little cumbersome.

My biggest complaint is that you can't really see what effect your changes are having while you are making the change since the menu system obscures the LCD. I have not tried an external monitor, but I understand that if you have one hooked up then you can see the effect of the changes as you make them.

It's also unfortunate that the HMC40 does not allow you to store scene files on the SD card like the HMC150. And of course we only have 2 scene files.

Of course, I need to give credit to Barry Green for the LoNoiz scene file (with my Master Pedestal value). And the sharp saturated is my modification of a scene file I found on this site.

If you search around there is a Panasonic document that describes the various values in the scene file menu really well. The one I found is for the HMC150 which has Master Pedestal values that range from -100 to 100 (rather than the -15 to 15 on the HMC40). But all of the other settings are the same with the same ranges. That doc lists the six scene files available on the HMC150 (out of the box).

There are also some discussions here about the scene files Barry publishes in his books (including LoNoiz).

I did some experimentation a while back an create a scene that has some color and gray scale printouts. I shot it with controlled lighting and adjusted each of the various settings thru their range to get a feeling on what it does.

I have really used DRS at all since I rarely shoot in 1080/60i or 720/60p which are the only framerates that support DRS.

But you can make some pretty dramatic settings with the scene file settings.
 
Robert M Wright said:
I'm guessing that adjusting the image with scene files, in a manner that essentially softens the image (even if just slightly), to compensate for noise when shooting in low light conditions, is likely no better than denoising in post, where you have a boatload more options and control over how you go about it. Softening the image in-camera is essentially irreversible (sort of a "shooting for dailies" approach). From a glance, it looks like that is essentially much of what the LoNoiz scene file probably accomplishes. I really do need to experiment...
Click to expand...

You are right that once you adjust it in camera you cannot go back. On the other hand, the camera is presumably working with a higher bit depth (its not clear from the docs how many bits the HMC40's DSP uses, but it should be at least 14bit). Since the camera is working with more bits it should be able to to a superior job. Additionally I think there is some advantage to getting as close to your final output in camera as possible.
 
I subscribe to the school of thought that says it's best to shoot for an image that will give you the most flexibility in post. I am going to do some testing. I want to see if a preset like that can indeed somehow deliver a better end result (final footage for viewing, after all is said and done), than shooting a more neutral image with the camera and working with it (essentially entirely) in post, to compensate for less than ideal lighting (or whatever).

I realize the camera's DSP works with a much higher color resolution image than is recorded, and thus available to adjust in post, but I've got to think that if you are going to touch the color at all in post (like color grading), you essentially give up any advantage (or at least a large portion) you might have gained from doing some irreversible processing with 14bit color, in-camera.
 
rich_r said:
My biggest complaint is that you can't really see what effect your changes are having while you are making the change since the menu system obscures the LCD. I have not tried an external monitor, but I understand that if you have one hooked up then you can see the effect of the changes as you make them.
Click to expand...
Yes, an external monitor helps enormously because it does show the effect immediately.

There are also some discussions here about the scene files Barry publishes in his books (including LoNoiz).
Click to expand...
HMC40 versions are underway as well, although it'll be a while...

I have really used DRS at all since I rarely shoot in 1080/60i or 720/60p which are the only framerates that support DRS.
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But that's only true for the HMC150/HPX170. On the HMC40, it's supported in all recording modes and frame rates.
 
Barry,

Here's a little table to add to the HMC40 Book:

Time Lapse Mode
Setting... |... Speed... |... 1 Hour Becomes
-----------|-------------|---------------------------
1 Second...|... 24x..... |... 150 seconds (2.5 minutes)
10 Seconds |.. 240x..... |.... 15 seconds
30 Seconds |.. 720x..... |..... 5 seconds
1 Minute.. |. 1440x..... |... 2.5 seconds
2 Minutes. |. 2880x..... |.. 1.25 seconds


Using the table, one could decide how much time compression they want. IF you had 3 hours of time to compress...

The 1 second setting would give 150 seconds per hour x 3 hours = 450 seconds of footage.

The 10 second setting would give 15 seconds per hour x 3 hours = 45 seconds of footage.

The 30 second setting would give 5 seconds per hour x 3 hours = 15 seconds of footage.

The 1 minute setting would give 2.5 seconds per hour x 3 hours = 7.5 seconds of footage.

The 2 minute setting would give 1.25 seconds per hour x 3 hours = 3.75 seconds of footage.


Bob Diaz

 
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Hah, I just did that table last night at 1 a.m... should have gone to bed instead and this morning would have found this done for me! :thumbsup:

Actually, now that I look at it, we approached it differently -- I did a table designed around the # of finished seconds you want the footage to be, but you did it based on how long one hour would last. I think I like your way better, so with your (implied) consent, I think I'll use yours -- and if you keep contributing like this, you'll get a slot in the "special thanks" in the front of the book!

Thanks Bob!
 
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Barry, your way is also logical. I got to thinking about the reverse of my table...

For 10 seconds of 24p footage:

1 second setting: Record for 4 minutes.

10 second setting: Record for 40 minutes.

30 second setting: Record for 2 hours.

1 minute setting: Record for 4 hours.

2 minute setting: Record for 8 hours.


Bob Diaz
 
I'm going to shoot a wedding mainly for fun this weekend for a friend using the HMC40. Anybody have some good recommendations on what to set the camera on? I'm scared to go above 12db of gain, yet some of my footage in decent light looks fine at 24db of gain if the light isn't too low. Thoughts on other scene file settings would be great. Right now I just have the chroma +1 and that's it. Should I remove all the detail, so it looks softer, by chance?

Chris
 
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