This is the slo-mo **** show that are all the rage with weddings. I deliver what the client wants as long as the check clears. LOL:happy:
GH5 S1 vs S1H
- Thread starter npm
- Start date
This is the slo-mo **** show that are all the rage with weddings. I deliver what the client wants as long as the check clears. LOL:happy:
Most of what you are seeing are 1 minute showreel demos on YouTube with drone footage, creamy slow motion and cinematic scores. That's not how the client always takes it. We offer it that way yes, a 5-7 minute highlight reel, but more often the client wants a documentary style film with everything, the getting ready shots, shots of the dress and rings, shoes, dressing room, the gifts, reading of letters to the couple, the first looks, the full ceremony with the vows and full audio, the family portraits, wedding party portraits, couple portraits, shots of all the guests, the grand entrance and introduction, the dinner serving, the sunset shots, the toasts, first dance, father daughter, mother son dances, the generations dance, the money dance, the everybody on the floor dancing, cutting of the cake, bouquet and garter toss and finally, the sendoff. A heck of a lot more goes into it than just frame rate, including lighting, audio; mic'ing the groom, recording from the PA system, the DJ soundboard. It is 6-8 hours of hard work, running back and forth between setting up and the ceremony, the reception, the patio, golf course, the river, the dinner seating, the dance floor; these are often spread a good distance apart, as well staying up with the couple, they can disappear in a blink and your job is to not miss any of the shotlist moments.
So if you are still reading...It raises my eyebrow when somebody says most weddings are shot in 60p and conformed to 24p. We never do it that way. We switch to 60p for the slow motion shots but shoot 24p for the timeline. If you shoot everything 60p and conform to 24p, you're tossing frames, have an odd 3:2 cadence, giving up a stop of lowlight at a venue that is almost always a challenge for light. They turn lights off on the dance floor completely sometimes; I don't know what they have against it, guess they are embarrassed they might be seen. :happy:
Last edited:
npm
Well-known member
This has been on my mind for sure as well. I use EF lenses so I would need to get a 2nd speedbooster (or maybe a Viltrox with no glass) but that wouldn't be too big an expense!
filmguy123
Veteran
Or, the S1H just got cheaper because the MC-21 adapter is cheaper than a Metabones speedbooster.
A used GH5s and metabones would be hard to go wrong with for the $$ though, the S1H is not cheap and there are costs to consider that add up.
My latest S1H $$ eaters: vignetting on FF wide glass with VND attached that I never used to have issue with due to sensor crop. 95mm VND = $350 = ouch.
Variable ND not strong enough because the S1H is so crazy good with lowlight. I need more stopping power, so shopping for a strong VND. I was maxing out my SLR magic VND at ISO 640 and having to stop down more than I wanted. With large 82mm filter sizes this will probably be $200-$220.
The GH5s is definitely not as good in terms of IQ. But it's still really good. No IBIS but other than I really love that little camera. And it's such a bargain used now.
If you are going to make the jump to the S1H you have to think whole system costs, and little things add up. It's an equitable jump up I think, you get what you pay for, but you might pay more than you thought you were bargaining for.
A used GH5s and metabones would be hard to go wrong with for the $$ though, the S1H is not cheap and there are costs to consider that add up.
My latest S1H $$ eaters: vignetting on FF wide glass with VND attached that I never used to have issue with due to sensor crop. 95mm VND = $350 = ouch.
Variable ND not strong enough because the S1H is so crazy good with lowlight. I need more stopping power, so shopping for a strong VND. I was maxing out my SLR magic VND at ISO 640 and having to stop down more than I wanted. With large 82mm filter sizes this will probably be $200-$220.
The GH5s is definitely not as good in terms of IQ. But it's still really good. No IBIS but other than I really love that little camera. And it's such a bargain used now.
If you are going to make the jump to the S1H you have to think whole system costs, and little things add up. It's an equitable jump up I think, you get what you pay for, but you might pay more than you thought you were bargaining for.
Yeah, it's certainly hard work! Weddings are the most demanding documentary film there is! And I also document the whole thing if the client has hired me for the necessary time (and it's not all in conformed 60p).
So much so, that I plan to book more wedding photo gigs than films next year, because many are complaining about the price I charge! It takes 4 hours of prep for gear checks and battery charges, and wedding days are always 12-14 hour days. Then you move 2-3 TB over to your editing station and start backups before you can clear media (another half day), and then you get to cutting. Takes about 80 hours for me to flip a wedding if everything goes perfectly (and Premiere Pro acts right), but people complain because the quote is $2000!
I'll shoot photos for a wedding and flip that job 3 hours after I get home for $1000, so I either have to find clientele that will pay north of $2500, or be content working for Guatemala fast food wages.
I also use Fresnel lights for receptions, so I can keep the ambiance while providing some much needed lighting and sculpturing of the dance floor participants.
I'm offering a full 4K production option since I'm adding in the S1H's 6K capability, so maybe that will add to my bottom line some.
Last edited:
Although I have nothing against it, 24p is not a personal preference for me but a required specification. I do edits and grades for my other events but for weddings I just shoot it, someone else edits. When I think about what they are doing with the footage, believe it or not they say they deliver in 1080p but I know they are handing out regular DVDs also. Remember that's 480i/60 or 480p/24; 480/30p is a 2:2 cadence and not pretty. And we are the largest wedding/photo/DJ sound event company in the region! Hard to believe. So 24p lives on.. I've been shooting b-roll with the Pocket 6k in braw, but it's hardly a requirement. That's not to say there aren't clients who care about higher resolution, 4K/6K, HDR etc., but as seen from the company perspective, they have to churn out the jobs. Large file sizes, high bit rates are not the priority. Lighting, sound and completing the shotlist are. I'm amazed how many wedding couples don't seem to care as long as it's documented with good audio and they can share it on their phones and tablets. When it comes to the cinematic looks, 1 minute presentations on YouTube, that's advertising. Of course the couple would like that too but people aren't just interested in seeing drone shots and intimacy in slow motion. They want to see the family, the guests, the kids, who was there, how they looked. Doesn't take an S1H for that. You can shoot with anything as long as the result is professional. Don't fool yourself, there is nothing gained from a camera that does more than necessary. In fact, I hear this from the veteran still photographers all the time. A newbie will say "I give extra attention to the photos in edit." The veterans say, "Don't do it! It won't be noticed, they don't care and you won't be paid for it." So that's the reality of cameras and equipment. In our minds we fabricate a need to support our hobby. As long as you are making money you can do that, but don't put the hobby aspect first.
filmguy123
Veteran
Whew, after shooting a wedding this weekend for the first time in four year I am going to chime in here. Spot on with weddings needing a mix of the cinematic/beautiful AND the "boring" live event coverage. 24p, sound coverage, etc. Because of this it is/was a total, exhausting madhouse. I didn't eat. I was always felt 2 minutes behind, mentally and physically taxed. Especially mentally, trying to juggle too many things.
My strategy on that was 4 cameras, 3 on tripods in 4K for cropping/framing and FHD delivery. Then a handheld (or easy rigged) S1H set to 48fps for slow motion/beauty shots that can easily be converted as a backup plan to high shutter 24p motion + RealSmart Motion Blur plugin to compensate in the event its needed (hopefully not at all). But, the 3 tripod cameras generally do the job for all the utilitarian coverage.
Then I get the best of both worlds... almost. But, the work that goes into this... not just day of, but in post... is a lot.
I hear you about clients complaining on seemingly high prices, hence why I stopped doing weddings except for the rare client who is willing to pay standard production rates. Unless you find yourself in the upper echeleons of the market (and it IS there, in certain regions, where you could bill $10k for a wedding package, but its quite a long stressful road to get there and you better LOVE doing weddings, and the stress that comes with taking on that level of bride/family/wedding budget/project) I second Tom - the primary way to survive is not to find clients that pay higher (possible but hard), or to work for low wages (WHY?), rather it is to do what Tom suggested: treat it as a churn & burn machine.
Which I *HATE*. And I suspect most of us do to, because it is soul crushing and feels dirty. Most of us got into this first for a love of the craft and second as a business. But to do this as a sustainable model, you make it a business first, second, and third - you set your prices where people want them and you work into the scope of that. You compromise on everything but the technical end of the craft, and even a bit there - you crank out utilitarian content, don't put a bunch of time into polish, beauty, or art, and let her rip. And people are happy enough because they see video and audio of themselves, and the product came timely, and you move on.
You can set a high tier price that allows you to do what you want, of course, but few will pay it so it will sit unused. Or, you can try what I did, and that is to make a little page of only your favorite wedding videos, which lots of people love, then set your prices to be equitable to make the sort of film YOU want (i.e. "astronomical" in the eyes of average wedding video shoppers) and refuse any work otherwise... and book no weddings and disappoint a lot of inquiries. If you do that, you will probably film weddings at the rate of about 2-3/decade lol.
I got into a bit of a mini debate with someone the other day who suggested I stop trying to make such good films and just please the client who would be perfectly happy with less, afterall, I am making the films for the client not for me and it's a business first.
Now I am sure my sentiment will be polarizing even here, but I said I simply don't want to do that. I don't make films for the client first. I make films first for the love of the craft, for the love of film, for the sake of the story and the beauty and integrity of the final piece, and for the joy of the process. I don't mean at all to say I displease the client, in fact, I have only ever had one client in my entire life be anything less than effusive with the final results. Personally I strongly believe the reason clients have felt so satisfied with the work is because of that perspective - because I don't/won't "JUST" give people something that will satisfy them... I work for them until they will be satisfied, of course, and then, I work at least twice as much until *I* am satisfied... and my standards are much, much higher. Frankly I am still not anywhere close to meeting my standards and I have a lot to learn (as can probably be evidenced but my perpetual questions, which I am honored to learn from people here far better than me).
I said if I changed my model to just be all about the numbers, then why am I doing this at all? If I am going to do something I hate doing, I wouldn't choose film or video, I would just go clock in at Intel or Nike or wherever else. Way easier. I am running a film business because I want to make beautiful films, and it will always be a business second to me. I'm not saying I ignore good business sense, if these are two feet planted on the ground my weight bearing foot is on the craft first. Honestly, I'd prefer to look at it more as a non-profit. An operation to make beautiful films that consistently exceed expectations, made sustainable by paying clients. I'm probably a little eccentric there. But I love what I do and I want to always love what I do, and if the way to survive this business is to churn and burn work, I would prefer to just drop the video business and churn and burn my work somewhere where at least I get to clock out, get paid vacation, health benefits, and a 401K.
I am not saying i have good business advice, I am just saying... perhaps this is the classic artist vs producer struggle. We all compromise all the time to make a living here but if there's ever a soul crushing industry for those that love their craft, it's probably the wedding video business. With a few exceptions, I think as a general rule you have to be a bit more engineering oriented rather than art oriented to make a sustainable living in wedding videos.
Well this sure got off track from the S1H didn't it? My bad.
Anyway, TL;DR yeah I hate when people film in 48p/50p for a 24p/25p delivery and just destroy the cadence of the film, but I get why it makes sense (and may even be a necessity) for the business model.
My strategy on that was 4 cameras, 3 on tripods in 4K for cropping/framing and FHD delivery. Then a handheld (or easy rigged) S1H set to 48fps for slow motion/beauty shots that can easily be converted as a backup plan to high shutter 24p motion + RealSmart Motion Blur plugin to compensate in the event its needed (hopefully not at all). But, the 3 tripod cameras generally do the job for all the utilitarian coverage.
Then I get the best of both worlds... almost. But, the work that goes into this... not just day of, but in post... is a lot.
I hear you about clients complaining on seemingly high prices, hence why I stopped doing weddings except for the rare client who is willing to pay standard production rates. Unless you find yourself in the upper echeleons of the market (and it IS there, in certain regions, where you could bill $10k for a wedding package, but its quite a long stressful road to get there and you better LOVE doing weddings, and the stress that comes with taking on that level of bride/family/wedding budget/project) I second Tom - the primary way to survive is not to find clients that pay higher (possible but hard), or to work for low wages (WHY?), rather it is to do what Tom suggested: treat it as a churn & burn machine.
Which I *HATE*. And I suspect most of us do to, because it is soul crushing and feels dirty. Most of us got into this first for a love of the craft and second as a business. But to do this as a sustainable model, you make it a business first, second, and third - you set your prices where people want them and you work into the scope of that. You compromise on everything but the technical end of the craft, and even a bit there - you crank out utilitarian content, don't put a bunch of time into polish, beauty, or art, and let her rip. And people are happy enough because they see video and audio of themselves, and the product came timely, and you move on.
You can set a high tier price that allows you to do what you want, of course, but few will pay it so it will sit unused. Or, you can try what I did, and that is to make a little page of only your favorite wedding videos, which lots of people love, then set your prices to be equitable to make the sort of film YOU want (i.e. "astronomical" in the eyes of average wedding video shoppers) and refuse any work otherwise... and book no weddings and disappoint a lot of inquiries. If you do that, you will probably film weddings at the rate of about 2-3/decade lol.
I got into a bit of a mini debate with someone the other day who suggested I stop trying to make such good films and just please the client who would be perfectly happy with less, afterall, I am making the films for the client not for me and it's a business first.
Now I am sure my sentiment will be polarizing even here, but I said I simply don't want to do that. I don't make films for the client first. I make films first for the love of the craft, for the love of film, for the sake of the story and the beauty and integrity of the final piece, and for the joy of the process. I don't mean at all to say I displease the client, in fact, I have only ever had one client in my entire life be anything less than effusive with the final results. Personally I strongly believe the reason clients have felt so satisfied with the work is because of that perspective - because I don't/won't "JUST" give people something that will satisfy them... I work for them until they will be satisfied, of course, and then, I work at least twice as much until *I* am satisfied... and my standards are much, much higher. Frankly I am still not anywhere close to meeting my standards and I have a lot to learn (as can probably be evidenced but my perpetual questions, which I am honored to learn from people here far better than me).
I said if I changed my model to just be all about the numbers, then why am I doing this at all? If I am going to do something I hate doing, I wouldn't choose film or video, I would just go clock in at Intel or Nike or wherever else. Way easier. I am running a film business because I want to make beautiful films, and it will always be a business second to me. I'm not saying I ignore good business sense, if these are two feet planted on the ground my weight bearing foot is on the craft first. Honestly, I'd prefer to look at it more as a non-profit. An operation to make beautiful films that consistently exceed expectations, made sustainable by paying clients. I'm probably a little eccentric there. But I love what I do and I want to always love what I do, and if the way to survive this business is to churn and burn work, I would prefer to just drop the video business and churn and burn my work somewhere where at least I get to clock out, get paid vacation, health benefits, and a 401K.
I am not saying i have good business advice, I am just saying... perhaps this is the classic artist vs producer struggle. We all compromise all the time to make a living here but if there's ever a soul crushing industry for those that love their craft, it's probably the wedding video business. With a few exceptions, I think as a general rule you have to be a bit more engineering oriented rather than art oriented to make a sustainable living in wedding videos.
Well this sure got off track from the S1H didn't it? My bad.
Anyway, TL;DR yeah I hate when people film in 48p/50p for a 24p/25p delivery and just destroy the cadence of the film, but I get why it makes sense (and may even be a necessity) for the business model.
Yeah, here's a frame from Venom (2018) that shows the same problem with red and blue lights when shooting with that crappy ARRI Alexa Mini camera...
I have yet to see any real evidence of this "problem" with either the S1 or S1H cameras. ( it looks like the lights are blowing past the dynamic range of the sensor, so you end up with this over-exposed solid color in the image )
Very interesting read filmguy. My questions to an artistically inclined, budding wedding photographer would be:
Will he prioritize getting the shot when faced with small problems like losing an eyecup piece or lens cap has him distracted? Will he make recording the grand entrance his priority if it means dropping his second camera on the ground? If he has to run to make it in time for the cake cutting and his cameras are banging into each other from their straps, is he going to slow down and fix the technical problem if it means being late for the shot? If he has been shooting artistic b-roll outside of flowers and fountains and suddenly the mother of the bride says he is needed immediately in the dressing room to record the opening of a gift or the reading of a letter, is he going to be slowed missing the moment because he was fiddling a ND filter or lens change? Will he not be recording an important moment from the start because he was making setting changes, didn't have the perfect setup? His camera is outside on the tripod where he left it after the ceremony. Now in the middle of the toasts, wind gusts have started up and it's beginning to rain. Is he going to keep rolling at this important moment or be looking to make a dash for the outside? You're not expected to give answers. But if someone gives anything other than undivided attention to what could be the most memorable moment for 60+ years of marriage, then the artistic, love of craft is revealed for the lack of professional responsibility that it would be. For the record, this is a good exercise for me as I prepare for this weekend's wedding shoot. I would rather be using my P6K or F55, but it would be more responsible to have recordings with a GH3, GH4 and a cheap lens than to risk expensive camera and lens not capturing the moment. Even though the GH5 is not my favorite camera de jour, the images from it are almost always very pleasing, clean, detailed, colorful with nice range and latitude. I am being paid. I work for the client. What I get from it is secondary. The goal is to be the best professional.
Will he prioritize getting the shot when faced with small problems like losing an eyecup piece or lens cap has him distracted? Will he make recording the grand entrance his priority if it means dropping his second camera on the ground? If he has to run to make it in time for the cake cutting and his cameras are banging into each other from their straps, is he going to slow down and fix the technical problem if it means being late for the shot? If he has been shooting artistic b-roll outside of flowers and fountains and suddenly the mother of the bride says he is needed immediately in the dressing room to record the opening of a gift or the reading of a letter, is he going to be slowed missing the moment because he was fiddling a ND filter or lens change? Will he not be recording an important moment from the start because he was making setting changes, didn't have the perfect setup? His camera is outside on the tripod where he left it after the ceremony. Now in the middle of the toasts, wind gusts have started up and it's beginning to rain. Is he going to keep rolling at this important moment or be looking to make a dash for the outside? You're not expected to give answers. But if someone gives anything other than undivided attention to what could be the most memorable moment for 60+ years of marriage, then the artistic, love of craft is revealed for the lack of professional responsibility that it would be. For the record, this is a good exercise for me as I prepare for this weekend's wedding shoot. I would rather be using my P6K or F55, but it would be more responsible to have recordings with a GH3, GH4 and a cheap lens than to risk expensive camera and lens not capturing the moment. Even though the GH5 is not my favorite camera de jour, the images from it are almost always very pleasing, clean, detailed, colorful with nice range and latitude. I am being paid. I work for the client. What I get from it is secondary. The goal is to be the best professional.
Last edited:
filmguy123
Veteran
Well said Tom! All great questions. Rhetorical, but a few thoughts:
I think successful, professional wedding videography if you're going to be a artistically inclined creative takes a very unique individual in the same way photojournalism does. It's this relentless, passionate obsession and dediciation to doing what is best for the film. It's an ingrained mindset that goes deep to an almost uncontrollable soul level - it doesn't even feel like a discipline. It feels like a innate compulsion: get the shot at all costs.
It also takes someone with a unique blend or artist and engineer. It's essential they understand codecs, timecode, DB, focal lengths, and all these technical items. But to make a compelling emotional piece, they can't be just a gear head. They have to an emotional, artistic, creative vision.
A budding and immature auteur may do the wrong thing in your list of scenarios, but a true, mature creative won't compromise critical moments for flower shots. But they will find a way to get both without risk (i.e. multiple cameras, etc.). And the type of person I'm talking about will absolutely sacrifice their gear and accessories for the shot. They budget for it before hand. They carry 2 of every critical filter because they plan on breaking on. They have a box of spare lens caps and mic covers because those are disposable in the heat of the moment. It's probably why weddings are so grueling for those who really, really care - and so completely unsustainable.
I'm with you on the GH5 (and the S1H) - they are reliably workhorses. As others have expressed in other threads, they may not have the best mojo. GH5 compared to P4K costs more for a lesser image IMO. And yet I use the GH5. I love the S1H because so far for me, it's best blend of everything. I think Canon/BMD mojo is a bit better... but I think the S1H is near close to the perfect tool.
Anyway, a person with that super unique set of talent and skill is sometimes, but rarely, found grinding the bottom feeders of the wedding business. And when they are, they generally graduate to a very successful wedding business or a different corner of the video market within a period of time.
I think successful, professional wedding videography if you're going to be a artistically inclined creative takes a very unique individual in the same way photojournalism does. It's this relentless, passionate obsession and dediciation to doing what is best for the film. It's an ingrained mindset that goes deep to an almost uncontrollable soul level - it doesn't even feel like a discipline. It feels like a innate compulsion: get the shot at all costs.
It also takes someone with a unique blend or artist and engineer. It's essential they understand codecs, timecode, DB, focal lengths, and all these technical items. But to make a compelling emotional piece, they can't be just a gear head. They have to an emotional, artistic, creative vision.
A budding and immature auteur may do the wrong thing in your list of scenarios, but a true, mature creative won't compromise critical moments for flower shots. But they will find a way to get both without risk (i.e. multiple cameras, etc.). And the type of person I'm talking about will absolutely sacrifice their gear and accessories for the shot. They budget for it before hand. They carry 2 of every critical filter because they plan on breaking on. They have a box of spare lens caps and mic covers because those are disposable in the heat of the moment. It's probably why weddings are so grueling for those who really, really care - and so completely unsustainable.
I'm with you on the GH5 (and the S1H) - they are reliably workhorses. As others have expressed in other threads, they may not have the best mojo. GH5 compared to P4K costs more for a lesser image IMO. And yet I use the GH5. I love the S1H because so far for me, it's best blend of everything. I think Canon/BMD mojo is a bit better... but I think the S1H is near close to the perfect tool.
Anyway, a person with that super unique set of talent and skill is sometimes, but rarely, found grinding the bottom feeders of the wedding business. And when they are, they generally graduate to a very successful wedding business or a different corner of the video market within a period of time.
These are no truer words, and I'm glad you repeated them to me. I have been trying to get my head around just getting the job done, and not trying to make every wedding it's own Oscar award winning production, because it's not necessary. It just blows out my editing time to the moon.
Your sage advice did not fall on deaf ears...
filmguy123
Veteran
I remember some years ago when videos were still delivered on DVD and not online, I had hand delivered the final discs to the client (husband). Wife wasn't there. I think most couples would probably watch this for the first time together but he wanted to vet it and invited me in so we could watch, I think he wanted to ensure it was good. So I did.
I had put a lot of work into the video and I remember him watching it so casually and just being like cool yup theres mom, there's this, there's that, and so non-challantly being like "cool yup looks good thanks!". It was almost blown off. None of the extra work I put in was even commented on, as if it wasn't there and didn't matter. I felt like I could have but 20% of the effort in and he would have been equally as happy.
So, there's a case in point for you. Be in focus, get good audio, get the needed shots, most clients will be happy. If you're business minded, this is going to be GREAT news for you. Setup your workflow pipeline and let the good times roll. If you're a creative visionary passionate about making films, everything I just wrote will probably depress you.
The Panasonic S1 only shoots 4K60p at 8-bit 4:2:0 internally. The SFU2 paid firmware upgrade unlocks 10-bit 4K 60fps output externally over HDMI. The upgrade does add 10-bit internal recording modes to the S1, but only up to 30p.
The S1 also has a 30-minute recording time limit when recording 4K60p, whereas the S1H has unlimited recording times in all recording modes. This was made possible in part due to the addition of a fan on the S1H.
And neither will do 60p without a 1.5 crop and S1h won’t do 4.2.2 colour in 6k. Now call me picky but I could only see myself forking out the considerable extra for an S1H if it had 60p full frame (even just 4K) and 6k 4.2.2.....
Understandable.
But also note that no one (besides Z Cam) this side of $10K has full frame 4K 60p.