FS5: S&Q, 60fps, and Shutter Angle

R

Rain Man

Active member
I've seen some discussion on this in the forums before, but no real answers as to what is going on here with the FS5 and shutter angle - why does it max at 85º at 240fps in S&Q mode? Why is there no 180º option in the 1080p 60fps mode? Anyone have any input or help with this? Or an explanation as to why 85º is ok for 240fps in S&Q mode?

If any of you shoot in 1080p/60fps, where do you set your shutter angle (or do you just use the shutter speed?)

Thanks!
 
I find it alot easier to use speed rather than angle.. just double the frame rate.. some camera,s I have had in the past have a constant 180 degree setting.. this works but then say shooting 23.98p you can have flicker at 1/48th.. or 1/60th at 29.97p.. in 50 hz countries.. with the shutter speed settings very easy .. just change to 1/50th..
 
I don't know why Sony refuses to make shutter angle work correctly when entering and exiting S&Q. I'm sure they've read the griping on the forums.
Using shutter time and manually changing it to double the frame rate works reliably but is error prone. You have to remember to do it every time.
 
SamEd said:
I don't know why Sony refuses to make shutter angle work correctly when entering and exiting S&Q. I'm sure they've read the griping on the forums.
Using shutter time and manually changing it to double the frame rate works reliably but is error prone. You have to remember to do it every time.
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Yes thats true.. I often shoot at 100fps.. the shutter speed goes to 1/100th automatically .. so I have to change it to 1/250.. and remember to change it back.. if i leave it on 1/100th .. it will change back also automatically.. not sure why it goes to 1/100 @ 100 fps.. ? maybe its ok .. ? or why the camera decides to go to that ? but I have forgotten t change back a few times..
 
In my opinion, 180 degree shutter is rarely fast enough for high frame rate shooting anyway, so changing the speed manually is usually the best route to go whether you choose to use either the speed or angle mode. It's just something you have to do and shouldn't be a big deal. What does it take, 5 seconds to change the speed?
 
180 degree shutter really only matters when you are shooting 24/30 FPS. And even then all it does is create a pleasing motion blur for that cinematic look. Doing 180 degree shutter at high FPS gains you exactly nothing, except less light. Use the manual speed control to get what you want. If you need to prioritize light, make it as "slow" as you can (1/125 in 120fps), if you need sharp images with no motion blur at all, make it faster.
 
KeithM Z Syst said:
180 degree shutter really only matters when you are shooting 24/30 FPS. And even then all it does is create a pleasing motion blur for that cinematic look. Doing 180 degree shutter at high FPS gains you exactly nothing, except less light. Use the manual speed control to get what you want. If you need to prioritize light, make it as "slow" as you can (1/125 in 120fps), if you need sharp images with no motion blur at all, make it faster.
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Interesting.. Ive always just gone with double /or close .. the frame rate.. I should test 100 fps @ 1/100...
 
I guess its depends a bit on what your shooting.. but yes thats what I worry about.. my camera F5 auto goes to 1/100th set to 100fps.. the minimum I guess and then you decide.. I should shoot a test I guess.. 1/250 th Ive never had an issues so far..
 
KeithM Z Syst said:
Should be no more smeary than anything captured at 1/100th, motion blur is dictated by shutter speed alone.
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Not true at all because you can't talk about it without a context of playback. Your previous claim is also false: "180 degree shutter really only matters when you are shooting 24/30 FPS. And even then all it does is create a pleasing motion blur for that cinematic look. Doing 180 degree shutter at high FPS gains you exactly nothing, except less light. Use the manual speed control to get what you want. If you need to prioritize light, make it as "slow" as you can (1/125 in 120fps), if you need sharp images with no motion blur at all, make it faster."

What you are forgetting is that the footage is viewed back at 24fps, so it is a motion blur relative to that speed IN PLAYBACK that matters. You can argue whether 180 shutter speed is desirable at any frame rate , that's another discussion whether it is just a carry over from film days, if 1/60th, 1/90th is better or not, etc. But if you agree that that's what you like in general then the rule stands across all frame rates (for whatever your desirable shutter angle is).

There was a thread about it here on dvxuser, I could not understand it until Mitch Gross explained it. Light bulb lit up in my head:

"As for shutter angle when shooting high speed, there can be many reasons for adjusting the shutter angle for various effects, but please remember that even though one is capturing at very high frame rates, the playback is at a "normal" one. We may be slowing down time but we are not slowing down relative motion within a frame. If an object is passing through the frame and you wish it to have some motion blur so that the motion does not appear strobe-like from frame to frame, then the same 180 degree shutter rule applies. The fact that the camera may have been running at 180p or 10,000p is not germaine. It is the resulting relative motion within the frame during playback that dictates this, thus the standard shutter rule.

Take it from the guy who use to be Mr. Phantom. There's always room to push and pull on this a bit, but in general the rule holds."

Thread is here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...etting-noise-vs-adjusting-your-exposure/page3
 
broughtonfilm said:
Not true at all because you can't talk about it without a context of playback. Your previous claim is also false: "180 degree shutter really only matters when you are shooting 24/30 FPS. And even then all it does is create a pleasing motion blur for that cinematic look. Doing 180 degree shutter at high FPS gains you exactly nothing, except less light. Use the manual speed control to get what you want. If you need to prioritize light, make it as "slow" as you can (1/125 in 120fps), if you need sharp images with no motion blur at all, make it faster."

What you are forgetting is that the footage is viewed back at 24fps, so it is a motion blur relative to that speed IN PLAYBACK that matters. You can argue whether 180 shutter speed is desirable at any frame rate , that's another discussion whether it is just a carry over from film days, if 1/60th, 1/90th is better or not, etc. But if you agree that that's what you like in general then the rule stands across all frame rates (for whatever your desirable shutter angle is).

There was a thread about it here on dvxuser, I could not understand it until Mitch Gross explained it. Light bulb lit up in my head:

"As for shutter angle when shooting high speed, there can be many reasons for adjusting the shutter angle for various effects, but please remember that even though one is capturing at very high frame rates, the playback is at a "normal" one. We may be slowing down time but we are not slowing down relative motion within a frame. If an object is passing through the frame and you wish it to have some motion blur so that the motion does not appear strobe-like from frame to frame, then the same 180 degree shutter rule applies. The fact that the camera may have been running at 180p or 10,000p is not germaine. It is the resulting relative motion within the frame during playback that dictates this, thus the standard shutter rule.

Take it from the guy who use to be Mr. Phantom. There's always room to push and pull on this a bit, but in general the rule holds."

Thread is here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...etting-noise-vs-adjusting-your-exposure/page3
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I hear what you are saying, up to a point. There is not a lot out there that moves fast enough to blur at those higher frame rates/shutter speeds in any case. And it's never going to look "natural" because it's not natural, it's an effect.
 
KeithM Z Syst said:
I hear what you are saying, up to a point. There is not a lot out there that moves fast enough to blur at those higher frame rates/shutter speeds in any case. And it's never going to look "natural" because it's not natural, it's an effect.
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Sorry, but you really don't understand it.
 
broughtonfilm said:
Sorry, but you really don't understand it.
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Oh I understand just fine. I just know that after a certain point motion is effectively frozen in the frame, so it becomes irrelevant whether motion blur is relative to playback because it doesn't exist. The exception being objects moving at really high rates of speed, at which point you are probably using your shutter differently anyway.
 
KeithM Z Syst said:
Oh I understand just fine. I just know that after a certain point motion is effectively frozen in the frame, so it becomes irrelevant whether motion blur is relative to playback because it doesn't exist. The exception being objects moving at really high rates of speed, at which point you are probably using your shutter differently anyway.
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My friend, what are you smoking? You talk about the silly 10x slow motion as if it was at least a Phantom camera. Have you never filmed sports, kids running around, cars driving by, birds flying? 240fps is laughable. Either way, even at 10,000 - 100,000 frames per second the shutter angle rule applies - after all these frame rates are used when filming fast moving objects.

Sure, if you film a person walking, or anything reasonably slow at 240fps, then you won't have much motion blur in a resulting video due to how slow these objects move across the frame in playback at 24fps, effect of shutter angle on motion blur is less noticeable (this of course depends on angular speed, focal length, distance from camera, etc. so even that is not always true). But that is the same for relative motion resulting from ANY frame rate - if I film a snail at 24fps (normal speed) I will likely not see any motion blur regardless of shutter angle setting but will clearly see when filming a car driving by or even a person moving.
 
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broughtonfilm said:
My friend, what are you smoking? You talk about the silly 10x slow motion as if it was at least a Phantom camera. Have you never filmed sports, kids running around, cars driving by, birds flying? 240fps is laughable. Either way, even at 10,000 - 100,000 frames per second the shutter angle rule applies - after all these frame rates are used when filming fast moving objects.
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My friend, have you tried not being a smug jerk? I have shot plenty of sports, and kids, and cars, and nature. Physics dictates that at a certain point motion becomes frozen because for the duration that the shutter is open the light reflecting off of the subject and falling on the sensor does not shift from one photosite to another. What shutter speed that happens at is dictated by a whole slew of factors. How fast the subject is moving, how fast the shutter is exposing, how far the subject is from the camera, the focal length of the lens, the movement of the camera in relation to the subject and background, the resolution of the sensor being exposed (this is why 8k 60p is blurry when compared with 4k 60p). A subject, lets say a person walking (and assume whatever other factors necessary), that reaches that point of becoming frozen at 1/120th of a second is going to look no different at 1/240th of a second because the actual image is no different. Is everyone shooting people walking (or whatever), no, but figuring out what you need in any situation is a lot more technical than using the 180 degree "rule", and entirely dependent on what you are trying to accomplish.

If we are talking about 1,000fps or 10,000fps we are in the wrong forum because this isn't the Phantom camera forum.
 
KeithM Z Syst said:
Physics dictates that at a certain point motion becomes frozen because for the duration that the shutter is open the light reflecting off of the subject and falling on the sensor does not shift from one photosite to another. What shutter speed that happens at is dictated by a whole slew of factors. How fast the subject is moving, how fast the shutter is exposing, how far the subject is from the camera, the focal length of the lens, the movement of the camera in relation to the subject and background, the resolution of the sensor being exposed (this is why 8k 60p is blurry when compared with 4k 60p).
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You are way off! This "frozen motion" (btw. wrong term because this is "frozen" only when referring to the amount of motion blur, the motion is not really frozen because its stages are represented by consecutive frames - but I know what you mean by that), it does not happen at the fps's discussed here, you'd need a very slow moving object for that to become a factor. For the ease of calculation, let's say a sensor is 2400 pixels wide (roughly 2K). That means that filmed at 240fps an object (in real life, as viewed by naked eye) would have to travel as slow as 10 sec. the width of the frame (because an objects would have to move less than one pixel / photosite a frame, so 240fps a second = 240 pixels / photosites a second so 2400 photosites is 10 seconds). This is at 360 degree shutter angle. At 100fps at 1/100th shutter speed (360 degree shutter), which was discussed here at some point, the object would have to move over twice as slow, so about 20 seconds. Throw your argument of sensor resolution into the equation and boom - at 4K you are looking at something that needs to move as slow as 40 seconds the width of the frame to achieve the absolute zero motion blur situation you described!

Now, if you want to in fact film snails in 100fps that go across the frame over 40 seconds in real time, so that you can then stare at it in playback at 24fps for 160 seconds, then yes, you are perfectly right that at this point narrowing the shutter angle will not make any difference because you physically can't have less motion blur. I will argue though that filming snails is not the usual slow motion application...
 
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