S log white balance

eddavid

eddavid

Carbonite Member
More I am using the s log feature - the more I wish they could enable custom WB at least by shooting into a white card. Shooting in documentary-style lighting conditions like last week in an office with mixed tungsten and daylight makes it a little bit of a challenge. What do you guys think about? I'd love to shoot with the Gemini but it's short recording times won't help for my doc style work.
 
That is allways going to be a challenge. Even in a color correcting suite. Especially using no gels on your lights. I would suggest carring more corrective gels for your lights. And really try to take that extra 5 minutes and try to match your dominate light source. You could also get a color meter to ensure being close. The little old ball lamps or can lights will just have fall where they may or gel them as well.

It's just spend some more time in CC or spend some more time on the set.
 
F3 -wb

F3 -wb

You guys all wanted your cameras tp be like Motion Picture Cameras which have a choice between Daylight and 3200 Deg .Tungston Film stock and now you have it. In three chip cameras, the WB is changed by adjusting the gain of the individual CCD RGB chips. In a single chip camera you can only change the gain of the one chip and all colors change together. When shooting in 709 mode the color signal can be Digitally moved up and down to adjust for WB. because the chip does see more of the highlights and shadow then are shown in the 709 output. In slog you are seeing the whole raw signal and there is no longer any head or toe area to move up and down to WB with. Like the Motion Picture Pros, gel your lights to match and use cc filters on the camera
 
I thought I remembered reading it was 5000... can't remember where.

Maybe slightly offtopic - but I've found myself shooting daylight frequently at 5300 with excellent results...
 
You're right - now all of a sudden we have a camera that we have to treat like a film camera and here I am running scared. Learning all about color correction filters. I never unfortuately experimented much with film so this is all new to me. Thanks guys.
 
TimurCivan said:
Wonder what the native wb is for the F3. 56k most likely....
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As I recall native WB on virtually all sensors is 5600, and its circuitry that skews it to compensate for other color temps. That's why some cameras introduce noise with white balance. I know some people who shoot the EX1/3 cameras all the time at 5600 and color correct the temp it.

What I find helpful is that many modern CFL bulbs are 5400, which is close enough to daylight (while avoiding the cheapest ones with the green spike). Its often easier to swap out a few incandescent for CFL bulbs in a home or small office rather than messing with filters.

In big offices the overhead fluorescent lights often have to be turned off because the ballast introduces flicker and a green spike. Hooray for CFL soft boxes. :)

I can't say as I've had the opportunity to use S-Log yet, but I think my strategy will remain the same.

Maybe slightly offtopic - but I've found myself shooting daylight frequently at 5300 with excellent results...
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Daylight can be anywhere from ~4000 to 7500 depending on where you are in the world, the time of day, etc.
 
Duke M. said:
Daylight can be anywhere from ~4000 to 7500 depending on where you are in the world, the time of day, etc.
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Well aware and I adjust accordingly. For what it's worth, I'm usually shooting in Tennessee or other south-eastern parts of the United States.
 
Funny, Back in my own film days I often used a polaroid camera to take stills to show me the contrast of the set. its tricky to get the color right for flourescents and that's one advantage to having a video with a monitor. Maybe now you should bring an EX-1 for lighting but shoot with an F3?

Seems like the RED system and also the Alexa might both be easier to use than the F3 with current software especially in 422 where it sounds like you lose some of the ability to see with a LUT. I love the fact that with a Red you can record both the Raw and the Red color or 709 proxy.


For $3500 I would think that Sony should get to work and improve the software to give you at least some kind of a 709 type LUT out for 422 and if possible a color balance option with it . That would be way more functional.

Lenny
 
Nothing prevents you from adding a LUT on set with an external device. I'm looking at the possibility of doing it with an HDLink, and started a separate thread to get opinions on that idea. In theory though, it's a $500 solution that lets you feed the dual-link output to the box, apply the LUT, and output over SDI or DVI.
 
Yeah that does make sense , but you still have the white balance issue . I know most of my clients want to see a WYSIWYG monitor and I can give them that with a RED or as I understand it an Alexa m( haven't worked with it yet tho.). Also I am used to lighting with a monitor myself and use it to judge color. Often for example I will show my client what something looks like if I light and balance to windows being "white " or letting them go blue or even warm. Or I will occasionally put a somewhat radical color on the lights and balance to them to alter the background. You would have more freedom to do that in SLog but can't see what your doing on the F3.
Can it be worked with - yes. Would it be a huge advantage if Sony improved the software to make monitoring efficient - you bet. Do they consider themselves in competition with Red and Alexa regarding SLog - I don't know. Seems like an afterthought especially re: 422.
 
I'm in San Francisco and interestingly Slog on the F has not taken off with the Rental houses. There are 2 high end houses here. One has not bought ithe card at all. What they say is their clients who have the time to spend on full color correction can also afford Red or Alexa. When they run the numbers for what it costs to rent an Slog card and the external recorder, the client finds the RED is the same or cheaper and goes with it instead. Workflow may play into it as well. Another rental house bought the card and hasn't sent it out yet. They say their F3 clients are mostly recording to the cards. Both places acknowledge that it may make much more sense for an owner-op though. So far I haven't had call for it and neither have my friends so we haven't bought the card - but that could change tomorrow.
I would like to get it when the new 422 recorders hit the market but I am watching pennies these days and need a workflow that isn't a pain in the butt to my clients. The whole selling point for me of the F3 was - RED quality without the hassle. "Sorry i can't show you quite what its going to look like " doesn't sound too attractive to me.

How is the monitoring issue working out for you guys who are using sLog now?
 
I think most of what you're addressing is a white balance issue. If you've got 32k or 56k balanced lighting, it's a non issue, for balances inbetween, I think if you used something like an HDlink you could program several extra LUTs to address specific situations, you'd need a laptop to switch between, but it's doable. For instance you could save a LUT to push F3-5600 to Target4400... or F3-3200 to Target2700.

Are these all workarounds? Yes, but we're getting S-Log for a fraction of the price...
 
I agree Lenilenapi, but I think if all it takes is adding a box on the table between the camera and the video village monitor to show the client REC709... well, that's not a bad deal.
 
I thought someone said with S-Log recording to 4.2.2 you could use one channel for the S-Log and the other to the monitor with a LUT. Or was that a theory that wasn't born out in practice.
 
Apparently not Duke. Seems like just feeding the left side of the dual link to a single link 4:2:2 recorder is a no-go. Which means people have to feed the monitor out SDI to the recorder, which means no LUT...
 
The F3's log isn't so aggresive. Also rent a monitor that accepts LUT's. Like a flanders, panasonic, sony etc...
 
Lenilenapi said:
I'm in San Francisco and interestingly Slog on the F has not taken off with the Rental houses. There are 2 high end houses here. One has not bought ithe card at all. What they say is their clients who have the time to spend on full color correction can also afford Red or Alexa. When they run the numbers for what it costs to rent an Slog card and the external recorder, the client finds the RED is the same or cheaper and goes with it instead. Workflow may play into it as well. Another rental house bought the card and hasn't sent it out yet. They say their F3 clients are mostly recording to the cards. Both places acknowledge that it may make much more sense for an owner-op though. So far I haven't had call for it and neither have my friends so we haven't bought the card - but that could change tomorrow.
I would like to get it when the new 422 recorders hit the market but I am watching pennies these days and need a workflow that isn't a pain in the butt to my clients. The whole selling point for me of the F3 was - RED quality without the hassle. "Sorry i can't show you quite what its going to look like " doesn't sound too attractive to me.

How is the monitoring issue working out for you guys who are using sLog now?
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This is EXACTLY what I've been hearing around here, as well. The SLog + etc rentals are about the same as RED MX, if not more because it's new? MX has gotten so easy to shove through post and people are familiar with it, know that it's going to be quality where the footage is concerned (as long as the users are on the level). So, it hasn't really taken off in my area. FS100 rents in lieu of the AF100, but even then I'm hearing "just shoot with a DSLR".

Dangerous middle ground, but I think the owner-op situation is really what it is.
 
Like I said, is it do-able - yes, but lots of hoops to run through. How many custom LUT's are you going to have. I could just carry a bunch of coral and CTB filters around and shoot through them if I wanted. Not too hard as I'm set up for 77mm on everything , but a PITA and that still leaves correcting for green.

My work flow in video has been heavily affected by the ease with which I can color balance and then light to that. Its a very nice way to work and if Sony software was better it would still be easy. My guess its its not brain surgery and I'm simply hoping Sony picks up the ball.
 
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