Run & gun lav mics recomm. to go with Sanken CS3e & Schoeps CMIT5U in noisy ambient

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lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com

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Run & gun lav mics recomm. to go with Sanken CS3e & Schoeps CMIT5U in noisy ambient

I recently did a video shoot in a very busy art gallery location. I had two Senn G3 with the bundled lavs and a 3rd Sony ECM77b on the 3rd subject To my delight, the Sony ECM77b sounded great! I mean it pretty much removed lots of distracting background and ambient noise. The G3 ME2 lavs didn't perform well and it's too noisy. The ECM77b somehow filtered out the background ambient much better. With that sound characteristic in mind, I'm curious to know if the Sanken COS-11D will perform the same or better as w/ the Sony ECM77b particularly in noisy and loud background environment? And also most art galleries have hardwood floor. It's virtually impossible to remove annoying sound echo & reflection. Will the COS-11D perform well in that scenario too?

I couldn't get a boom op on the noisy art gallery to use the Sanken CS-3e. The reason why I prefer the COS-11D is that I also have the Sanken CS-3e shotgun mic. May intercut here and there. But the bulk will be on lavs. I do lots of run & gun ENG/EFP shoots with undesirable conditions (noisy background noise, loud music playing in background). So far the ECM77b is very good overall but looking for a notch up to match with the CS3e and/or Schoeps CMIT5U. I also have the Countryman B6. Unfortunately it's too slow to mic them up vs the Senn G3 clip on lavs. The G3 lavs mics are great generaly purpose use where it's can withstand lots of abuse and quick lav clipping on/off.
 
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I own a bunch of different lav mics including the Sanken COS-11D, and it's the only lav that I rarely use because it picks up everything in the room. Fantastic sound but the environment has to be pretty quiet in order to use this mic.
 
A Sanken COS-11D usually inter-cuts with a boom better, as does a Tram, but are more prone to pick up reflections and such. Use your 77s if your like em'. As I've stated prior, I've always liked the iso qualities of the ECM55s, unfortunately they're kind of large.
 
lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com said:
I recently did a video shoot in a very busy art gallery location. I had two Senn G3 with the bundled lavs and a 3rd Sony ECM77b on the 3rd subject To my delight, the Sony ECM77b sounded great! I mean it pretty much removed lots of distracting background and ambient noise. The G3 ME2 lavs didn't perform well and it's too noisy.
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The Sennheiser ME2 lavs don't get a lot of love. They are adequate, but most people end up replacing them it seems. I suspect a lot of the problems people have with them are actually with the setup of the G3 radios themselves. Proper gain staging really helps. In particular, the sensitivity setting on the transmitter. So you might want to play with that a little if you haven't already dialed it in.

OTOH, if you like the results you get from the ECM77b, then use it. Nothing wrong with using what works.

As you go up in capability and price, lavs tend to get more sensitive and more revealing. The reason for this is that most of these lavs are designed for narrative dialog work. They are designed to be hidden under costumes, and therefore have a "presence boost" dialed into their response curves. This works great for that job, but less so for your "trade show floor" job.

What I normally use for this kind of trade show floor work is a dynamic reporters mic, an EV RE50N/D-B in my case. If you really want a lavalier, I'm thinking what you might want then is an equivalent to a dynamic reporter's stick mic. Something like the Shure SN11-CN? IDK if that would work for you or not. It's just a thought.
 
OK. Thanks for the tip. Saved me the hassle of trying that mic out. That leaves to the Countryman B6 and Senn ME4. I haven't use either it in a noisy environment. Do you think the Countryman B6, ME4, or MKE-104 are better for noisy ambient?

The ME4 is an ugly $149 mic that goes with the G3 series. it's probably the ugliest looking lav for Senn. Big wind protector that you can't remove it easily and unbelievably bad mic cable clip. That clip is putting so much pressure on the wire that it may damage it. I also found the MKE-104 cardioid head capsule. Have to spend $80 for the KA100 cable. Still not sure what are the differences between the ME4 ($150) and MKE-104 ($350) besides the much nicer build on the MKE-104. Any opinions on the ME4 and MKE-104?


TheDingo said:
I own a bunch of different lav mics including the Sanken COS-11D, and it's the only lav that I rarely use because it picks up everything in the room. Fantastic sound but the environment has to be pretty quiet in order to use this mic.
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Most of the shoots I'm doing the producers want 100% hidden mic. I recalled a $100 Shure SM58 will do the job. Super clean dialogue with virtually no background noise at the cost of having it visible in the shot. However, because the non-news style of the show, I can't have anyone holding the handheld mic. Lavs are the only way to do it. Sanken CS3e is an alternative but not always possible due to the lack of boom op. I also used the Schoeps CMIT5U. Great sounding mic but not suitable in noisy ambient.

Bruce Watson said:
The Sennheiser ME2 lavs don't get a lot of love. They are adequate, but most people end up replacing them it seems. I suspect a lot of the problems people have with them are actually with the setup of the G3 radios themselves. Proper gain staging really helps. In particular, the sensitivity setting on the transmitter. So you might want to play with that a little if you haven't already dialed it in.

OTOH, if you like the results you get from the ECM77b, then use it. Nothing wrong with using what works.

As you go up in capability and price, lavs tend to get more sensitive and more revealing. The reason for this is that most of these lavs are designed for narrative dialog work. They are designed to be hidden under costumes, and therefore have a "presence boost" dialed into their response curves. This works great for that job, but less so for your "trade show floor" job.

What I normally use for this kind of trade show floor work is a dynamic reporters mic, an EV RE50N/D-B in my case. If you really want a lavalier, I'm thinking what you might want then is an equivalent to a dynamic reporter's stick mic. Something like the Shure SN11-CN? IDK if that would work for you or not. It's just a thought.
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lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com said:
Most of the shoots I'm doing the producers want 100% hidden mic.
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What about using a LAV mic under the person's clothing ?

I have the TRAM TR50 lav and the Oscar SoundTech OST-802 lav that work quite well under clothing. You can even get the OST-801 with the high frequency bump to give you a cleaner high end when used under clothing. ( my favorite $100 lav mic )
 
Countryman B2D might do the job. It' the smallest lav you can buy, easy to conceal, and works with Senn transmitters. It is directional, so it won't work if the talent turns off axis. It was originally designed for stage work and comes in three sensitivities. My only complaint is the crappy swiveling clip, which is tricky to work with, and comes apart easily. When I complained to Countryman and asked for a warranty replacement, I was informed that it was working as designed.
 
Curtis Mack said:
It is directional, so it won't work if the talent turns off axis.
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An excellent warning of the perils of directional lavs. Anything other than omni requires training of the talent who's wearing it, and the wherewithal of that talent to actually use the training while performing. That is, to keep their mouth in-pattern with the mic whenever they are speaking. This is way easier said than done, and just about impossible to correct for in post.

Not to mention directional mics exhibit proximity effect, which makes raising/lowering the head problematic. And that non-omni mics are more susceptible to wind noise (if talent is moving, wind noise can be an issue).

Save yourself all kinds of headaches and use an omni lav. Don't even think about anything else.

Earset mics are another matter entirely. If you're using an earset, might as well be directional, because it moves with the head and stays in place relative to the mouth. So the talent can't really screw it up.
 
Crossing out the Sennheiser ME4, MKE104 (cardioid), MKE105 (super cardioid) will begin now. This leaves me with the Sony ECM77b and Countryman B6. ECM77b will work in many scenarios, especially loud ambient noise and high sound pressure level. I'll double mic it since the B6 is so small and easy to conceal. I have the Rycote Lav Windshield for $25. It's pretty big. The best place to put that is in between the boobs for female. The B6 is extra sensitive to light wind.

Bruce Watson said:
An excellent warning of the perils of directional lavs. Anything other than omni requires training of the talent who's wearing it, and the wherewithal of that talent to actually use the training while performing. That is, to keep their mouth in-pattern with the mic whenever they are speaking. This is way easier said than done, and just about impossible to correct for in post.

Not to mention directional mics exhibit proximity effect, which makes raising/lowering the head problematic. And that non-omni mics are more susceptible to wind noise (if talent is moving, wind noise can be an issue).

Save yourself all kinds of headaches and use an omni lav. Don't even think about anything else.

Earset mics are another matter entirely. If you're using an earset, might as well be directional, because it moves with the head and stays in place relative to the mouth. So the talent can't really screw it up.
Click to expand...
 
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