Run and Gun, Zoom H6 and dual sound set-up

S

stokstad

Well-known member
Hello!

Im currently trying to set up a one man documentary rig with as good audio possibilites as I can. Im not very experienced with sound recording so I have a few considerations that I would be very happy if someone could chime in on.

I use an Zoom H6 and an Rode Videomic, recording both the with the H6 stereo mic and the rode shotgun. I then output the signal into my D800 and monitor the levels on the H6 meters and with my headphones in the zoom. I record on the zoom and use D800 audio as reference to plural eyes. I can't afford an better shotgun-mic right now, so I have plugged the 3,5mm into an rode vxlr-adapter.

What do you guys think of this setup? Is it worth it recording on the H6 in higher bitrate instead of the signal going into my D800? Also, anyone with experience using the H6 with any generel tips?

Thanks
 

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What are you trying to accomplish? As far a useful sound recording, an on-camera mic may occasionally capture some nat sound (ambient) that is sufficient, but not much past that. In documentary situations, it can suffice for b-roll sound if it has to.

For dialog, though, the mic needs to come off the camera and move close to the action. This can be through a boomed mic, which requires a boom operator, or through use of wireless systems with lav mics. For seated interviews, a mic may be boomed on a mic stand for one-man-band operation.

Personally, I cannot stand strapping all sorts of extra stuff to my camera rig. I'd rather have a bag-friendly recorder in a small audio bag on a belt or strapped to my chest or on a shoulder strap. Audio bags also allow for organization of things like wireless receivers and spare batteries, as well as things like cable management.

With DSLR shooting, you'll almost always get better quality recording sound to an external recorder that you will recording in-camera audio.

Last, the on-board stereo mics of the H6 are not going to get you much of use while mounted to your camera rig. They record too wide a pattern and will pick up all sorts of stuff that isn't in front of the camera. I do keep a small, hand-held recorder in my kit (DR-40) which I use apart from the camera to grab ambient sound beds: room noise (which is not the same as room tone), city traffic, sounds of the forest, crowded restaurants, etc. While recording video, the shotgun is the only source you need.
 
WHAT are you recording? Do you have a specific aspect of the audio that you want to improve, or is this just free-floating anxiety?
It is just not clear what we are trying to fix or improve?
 
Im shooting documentaries mostly, but other stuff aswell. Its usually very low-budget, where Im alone and need to do both audio and video. Especially concerned about run and gun and spontaneous situations, and I want to be as prepared as I can for that, even though its never gonna get really good it just has to be acceptable. In these situations and the how I like to make films it's fine if Im not invisible as a cameraman, I can be a presence in the film. It can be outdoors, following someone closely and trying to get what their saying. It could be a very personal scene with just me and another person. It could be an event-scenario where Im in a crowded area doing spontaneous interviews.

As for specific aspects of audio I was interested in what use you thought a stereomic could have, and what the benefits would be recording with the H6 instead of the signal from it in the DSLR.

My goal is to get as good sound as I can when Im shooting alone, without an boom-operator. It also has to be reasonably small so I can move freely. My intention was to have both a shotgun and a stereo-mic recording simultaneously to have greater flexibility in post, getting both wide and narrow pick-up. I guess I will have to get in really close with the camera to get dialogue, or use a lav (which I don't have currently).
 
stokstad said:
My intention was to have both a shotgun and a stereo-mic recording simultaneously to have greater flexibility in post, getting both wide and narrow pick-up. I guess I will have to get in really close with the camera to get dialogue, or use a lav (which I don't have currently).
Click to expand...

The wide pickup will do nothing good for your dialog, and there's no need to have it in post. To get good, clear dialog, the mic needs to be closer than the camera. Also, you can always make dialog sound further away in post, but you can never make it sound closer than it was recorded.

Your example if an outdoor walk-and-talk, "following someone closely and trying to get what they're saying," that camera-mounted shotgun is going to respond in one direction: straight ahead. If the subject turns his/her head away from the camera, the voice then falls off-axis.

Adding a wireless system to your sound kit is something to put on a high priority.
 
1) If you want to record ambient (whether mono or stereo) then remember to dedicate SEPARATE track(s) to ambient. NEVER try to mix ambient and primary dialog while shooting!!! Even if you have a dedicated audio mixer. Fortunately, you have 4 or 6 tracks with your H6, so you are in good position here for trying various audio schemes.
2) It would appear that your FIRST priority is getting the "dialog", and the background/ambient sounds is a "nice-to-have". In which case you can dedicate one channel to dialog and other(s) to "ambient".
3) I was thinking exactly the same thing as Alex.H If you want to improve your coverage of dialog from the subject, then a wireless mic would seem like a top priority.
4) Using a camera mounted mic (of ANY kind) is NEVER EVER a good choice for recording dialog. A wireless mic would be a MUCH HIGHER priority than ANY KIND of shotgun mic. Using your short shotgun as a hand-held mic would be preferable to leaving it mounted on the camera rig.
5) Recording audio on the H6 will likely ALWAYS yield better quality than recording on ANY make/model of DSLR. Recommend taking the LINE OUT from the H6 and feeding it into your DSLR as the "guide track" for PluralEyes (or for manual syncing). You will probably need an attenuating cable to knock the H6 line-level down to mic-level for your DSLR. This need not be expensive.
6) Recording audio at a bit-rate > 48K will have no perceptible benefit. And will add significant problems. NOT recommended.
 
Thanks for the answers.
To get wireless mics on everybody seems unlikely for a lot of the footage I see myself doing, but I will definitely get at least one in the future. To improve my current setup I can get the shotgun further forward and I might skip the H6 stereomic altogether, mounting it further back on my shoulder, waist or somewhere I can monitor and adjust more easily.
 
Having worked on way too many films where they tried to get it "all in one" my advice is don't. Even in a documentary situation. The reason is two fold. First the only thing you can't augment/ replace is the actual on screen dialog. Anything that challenges getting the best cleanest dialog you can needs to be tossed. The second reason is that the backgrounds etc are not going to cut where the picture is. You want those to stay roughly the same through out the whole scene/ interview. The only way to do that is to record nice long takes of gust the backgrounds. Any backgrounds you pick up while filming are going to get chopped to hell and gone when you edit.

You generally can't record the BG's when the set is active and you don't want to try and keep your crew et all quiet for a protracted length of time. So you really need to do the BG recordings at a separate time.

Now for doc. stuff here is where you hit the three way split. There is a group who feel that ONLY sound that happened AT THE TIME you shot is OK to use, because anything else is "artificial". To them I say "then don't edit!". I'm not in that camp. The next group is OK with adding sound as long as it is from the place that you shot. I can roll with that. I think it's still failing the reality check of post and picture editing but I can see the point and as long as you actually do have someone record stuff it works fine. The last group is really you can add anything as long as it is not a "lie" in the context of the story. So the sounds may not be exactly the right sounds but they are in the ball park and don't imply anything that is not "real" (no gun shots unless you were actually under fire). There is also a group that just does whatever they feel like but then they have really dropped out of the documentary / journalism world by that point.

So I would focus on the dialog, if you have someone and or the time get as much of the local sounds as you can. If you can't you can always find stuff that is the essence of what was there and doesn't "lie" about the story.

BTW if you manage to collect some decent recordings in odd places sound editors are always looking to expand their libraries, and you will have something to trade. Remember there are sound professionals all over the world and if you ask in the right places (especially if you have some sounds to trade) you can get just about anything.
 
Noiz2 said:
So I would focus on the dialog, if you have someone and or the time get as much of the local sounds as you can. If you can't you can always find stuff that is the essence of what was there and doesn't "lie" about the story.
Click to expand...

Yeah that makes sense. I have mounted the zoom further back on the shoulder for easy monitoring and more space for wireless connections and such. It also balance the rig and take away some front weight. It's still nice to be able to put on the stereomic and get some BG when it will work. To clarify this is only when Im alone shooting.
 
Richard Crowley said:
1)...
5) Recording audio on the H6 will likely ALWAYS yield better quality than recording on ANY make/model of DSLR. Recommend taking the LINE OUT from the H6 and feeding it into your DSLR as the "guide track" for PluralEyes (or for manual syncing). You will probably need an attenuating cable to knock the H6 line-level down to mic-level for your DSLR. This need not be expensive.
...

Happily, the 1.01 firmware upgrade for the H6 provides a very handy ability to attenuate the line out in 5 dB steps to a max (min!) of -35 dB.

Fran
Click to expand...
 
Lots of good points. I'd add that a critical part of so-called run-and-gun is being unobtrusive and discreet — which is tough to do when you're lugging around something as conspicuous as that rig.

I prefer having the smallest, lightest gear on my hands as I shoot mostly handheld, occasionally using a monopod. I have a shotgun mic attached to the hotshoe of my DSLR. And, at times, a SmallHD DP4 that gets attached via a flat flash bracket.

The critical thing is that my recorder — now a Zoom H6 — gets slung across my chest and shoulders. The shotgun mic feeds into that, as well as occasionally, a Sennheiser G3.

I can still see the Zoom's meters, and with the two-second record pre-roll, I have ample time to press record once something interesting happens in front of me.

When shooting MOS b-roll only I can take off the Zoom and be unencumbered. And when collecting nat sound and ambient I can put my camera on the table and walk around with the Zoom H6, untethered. (Or you can place the Zoom H6 in the middle of a scene, and walk around with the camera. Good, for say, live small ensemble music, not that I record much of that.)
 
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