(Rumored) Panasonic FF mirrorless

[puredrifting]

Looks like these particular models aren't going to immediately change anything on the video end of the spectrum. To the folks questioning the ability to justify an Eva1 over DSLRs moving forward, I must say, I disagree. A long time proponent of the DSLR-for-videoo on purpose, not just because of price, I finally caved and got an Eva1 this year, and I think it is beyond worth it. In many subtle ways, including IQ, it trumps the GH5 which I still love and use as a B cam. Perhaps I've just drunk the Kool-aid, but I get the 'real camera' thing, now.

Until mirrorless cameras have built-in ND filters and XLRs, for my type of shooting, they are a hack and a PITA one at that. I shot for years with the 5D MKII, MKIII, then a GH4, I was and am still done with a DSLR/Mirrorless as my main camera. For certain things they are great but as my go to, A camera tool, gotta be a video/digital cinema camera that you can just grab and shoot with, not have to spend 20 minutes building into a real camera. Different strokes. For a gimbal or B-camera, mirrorless is genius.

 

[NorBro]

We hear [see] you say that at least once a week, lol.

 

[filmguy123]

I'm not trying to be contrarian I am just really confused - serious question:

Adding the XLR adaptor and using Xume + VND filters I find to be quicker, lighter, super fast, and overall just as good as my EVA1. Except with a lot of pros in being modular and small/light.

The built in NDs are great for keeping lens flare down and not needing to struggle with hoods/matteboxes but there are a lot of smart solutions with certain VNDs, rubber hoods, etc. that make that super quick. And there are downsides to built in NDs - The EVA1 has 4 presets, and not strong enough ND to boot... VS a VND with stronger ND and I can dial it in EXACTLY to my desired exposure while leaving aperture locked @ f/2.8. VS hopping around f/3.5-5 on EVA1 to compensate for the NDs, and sometimes not having enough ND and needing to add external.

I just see this as a non-issue now, but, that is of course only for my type of work and I believe you're on a set where the XLR probably feels more fragile than it does for me as a OMB.

 

[NorBro]

It's a chicken-or-egg debate...some will never see it that way.

I find mirrorless and DSLR cameras to be vastly superior in ergonomics and usability - and you would have to pay me twice the rate to shoot on anything but them these days - but some grew up with traditional cameras and will love those 'real' cameras.

I didn't so maybe that's the disconnect.

I am blazing fast with a stills camera that shoots video.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Announcement was basically confirmation of the rumors, so glad to see them hold, but also lacking any real answers to questions:

What is the codec, specifically at 4k60p? 10-bit?
Max FPS in VFR, output recording options?
Variable Scan Mapping for S35? For M43 (maybe only on the 48mp model)?

Etc.

Hoping there's some good hands on time on the show floor with Q&A but I'm sure they are also saving/hiding/still figuring out those final specs.

That said I can't imagine this not being a must own as a Panasonic invested user. FF with Dual IS is insta-buy. Adapt some vintage glass on there and turn this into a run'n'gun workhorse.

The real question becomes, will M43 truly have a place after this, other than being cheaper?

I would be absolutely shocked if the codec doesn’t at least match the GH5. Since this is aimed at photospheres first it may be more 8bit focused and not include v-log out of the box but I think that would be a mistake in today’s market. Panasonic has an opportunity to really stand out here and now that Fuli also provides 10bit internal that really is the new modern benchmark. With that said baked in 8bit Panasonic codecs are still phenomenally amazing looking for everyday users and professional users that have no interest in log.

The lack of information on adapting other lenses to the mount is a missed opportunity here for Panasonic. That is going to be the golden question from just about everybody who are unhappy with the lens choice from the new Canon and Nikon offerings and never really like the Sony lens options. Leica is amazing but what really put Panasonic on the map was the ability to slap just about any lens on a m43 body. With that said Panasonic practically invented ETC or scanning a middle portion of the sensor so I would be surprised if it doesn’t have at least that ability. How one can shoehorn a lens to the mount to utilize that sensor crop is a different story.

Flip out screen causes me to put on the breaks a bit but in the photography world that feature isn’t as critical as it is in the video world. It will certainly be missed if it isn’t articulated but it also would not be the end of the world. Especially if ditching articulated means they can greatly bump up the quality and size ala the Pocket 4k.

While we don’t know the resolution of the sensor in terms of pixels I think it’s safe to assume the sensor is 3:2 since that’s the FF standard. You can’t really claim FF and not be the aspect ratio of 35mm film. Knowing that, a 47mp sensor has to be at least 8400 wide. I would take a guess and say 8400x5600 which are some insanely dense stills. Not sure what the heck people would use the 150mp pixel shift mode for.

 

[filmguy123]

"The cameras will use a high-speed, high-precision hybrid contrast detection autofocus. Panasonic says the S series also uses deep learning artificial intelligence in the autofocus system, but didn’t go into further detail about how that technology works and what it means for the camera’s performance."

AI is under heavy research and development by almost every single company in the world...it will eventually make it into prosumer cameras and they will recognize what you are pointing them at like the "Terminator" vision...human - tree - building - cat - dog - food - and so on.

Yes, probably a slight sneak peak of what to expect from Z CAM E2 who is doing the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKYBsY7Ds8Q

I hope they go the extra mile sooner than later and extend this into automatic metadata recording - imagine being able to search your clips after a live b-roll shoot for "kid" or "cat" or both, etc. Think a video form of what Apple/Google have with photo search now.

My understanding is that this is all live in the camera via AI to assist with focus - basically an advanced form of facial detection like what is used for red eye removal, or what DJI has with their drone tracking, to track entire bodies and objects through space and use this for AF in combo with other methods.

 

[filmguy123]

"The cameras will use a high-speed, high-precision hybrid contrast detection autofocus. Panasonic says the S series also uses deep learning artificial intelligence in the autofocus system, but didn’t go into further detail about how that technology works and what it means for the camera’s performance."

AI is under heavy research and development by almost every single company in the world...it will eventually make it into prosumer cameras and they will recognize what you are pointing them at like the "Terminator" vision...human - tree - building - cat - dog - food - and so on.

I find mirrorless and DSLR cameras to be vastly superior in ergonomics and usability - and you would have to pay me twice the rate to shoot on anything but them these days - but some grew up with traditional cameras and will love those 'real' cameras.

I didn't so maybe that's the disconnect.

I am blazing fast with a stills camera that shoots video.

Same - except I grew up on "real" cameras and switched to DSLR because I couldn't afford "Real" cameras for a 5 year stretch, and now that I have both, DSLR is generally better... for my needs... and faster.

 

[filmguy123]

I would be absolutely shocked if the codec doesn’t at least match the GH5.

Same here - really would be.

Then again, I'm shocked that the GH5/S shoots 10-bit HD 50p and 60p but NOT 10-bit HD VFR modes (like 36, 48)... even at firmware 2.3... soooooo I'm optimistically cautious.

 

[rob norton]

I'm not trying to be contrarian I am just really confused - serious question:

Adding the XLR adaptor and using Xume + VND filters I find to be quicker, lighter, super fast, and overall just as good as my EVA1. Except with a lot of pros in being modular and small/light.

The built in NDs are great for keeping lens flare down and not needing to struggle with hoods/matteboxes but there are a lot of smart solutions with certain VNDs, rubber hoods, etc. that make that super quick. And there are downsides to built in NDs - The EVA1 has 4 presets, and not strong enough ND to boot... VS a VND with stronger ND and I can dial it in EXACTLY to my desired exposure while leaving aperture locked @ f/2.8. VS hopping around f/3.5-5 on EVA1 to compensate for the NDs, and sometimes not having enough ND and needing to add external.

I just see this as a non-issue now, but, that is of course only for my type of work and I believe you're on a set where the XLR probably feels more fragile than it does for me as a OMB.

I was a huge fan of the xume adapters (ripoff price aside) until I was carrying my tripod/camera on my shoulder. The 77mm genustech vari-ND fell off and smashed to pieces. This wasn't a design fault, I obviously pushed the system past what it could hold.

So if rigorous or even semi-rigorous movement is important be careful. It's enough for some to want internal NDs. Plus when you're on the edge of clear vs. a small amount of ND, internal NDs are faster.

Also, this may be a professionalism thing but I hate having to think about whether I included filters. I know that sounds weak because it's one extra item but the peace of mind is huge.

You're right though, vari-NDs can be easier in many situations, although I don't rate rubber hoods at all.

I would hate to have to add more ND to a camera that already has internal ND, seems like a slap in the face! There's obviously a reason for it but I'm not interested in hearing it. I bet you would've paid more money for 10 stops of ND in your eva?

 

[puredrifting]

We hear [see] you say that at least once a week, lol.

Of course, how else are we going to get the manufacturers to listen, it takes repetitive declaration! ;-)

 

[filmguy123]

Yeah, 10 stops of ND would be great. Electronic variable like Sony would be fantastic.

Those 2 things together and I’d be singing the internal ND praise again but currently it feels like a 50/50 trade off.

 

[puredrifting]

I'm not trying to be contrarian I am just really confused - serious question:

Adding the XLR adaptor and using Xume + VND filters I find to be quicker, lighter, super fast, and overall just as good as my EVA1. Except with a lot of pros in being modular and small/light.

The built in NDs are great for keeping lens flare down and not needing to struggle with hoods/matteboxes but there are a lot of smart solutions with certain VNDs, rubber hoods, etc. that make that super quick. And there are downsides to built in NDs - The EVA1 has 4 presets, and not strong enough ND to boot... VS a VND with stronger ND and I can dial it in EXACTLY to my desired exposure while leaving aperture locked @ f/2.8. VS hopping around f/3.5-5 on EVA1 to compensate for the NDs, and sometimes not having enough ND and needing to add external.

I just see this as a non-issue now, but, that is of course only for my type of work and I believe you're on a set where the XLR probably feels more fragile than it does for me as a OMB.

You hit on something important, the EVA 1 doesn't have enough stops of ND, I use my C200's extended ND daily and having to put a traditional ND on a camera that has internal ND is adding insult to injury, I agree. As far as variable ND, ever think about why they put that feature in the FS5 MKII and FS7 MKII and not the Venice? Makes one wonder, doesn't it? I have not shot with it but have read a few posts where people are saying things about potential IR pollution and or some of the weird artifacts that are possible with traditional Variable ND filters. I do know that all six of the Variable NDs I own (Tiffen, B&W and Hoya) all soften the image and can add nasty artifacts if they are over rotated. Something to think about, vari ND built in sounds like a killer feature but at what cost to image?

Also, just my opinion but video cameras tend to have significantly better audio specs and preamps that any DSLR or mirrorless cameras and those audio adapters like the ones for the GH4 and GH5 are comically cheap in build and sound quality. Not mention they erode the already compromised ergonomics. Workable, yes, somewhat but overall, audio is more of a compromise on a DSLR/mirrorless than on most video or digital cinema cameras.

 

[jb.]

You hit on something important, the EVA 1 doesn't have enough stops of ND, I use my C200's extended ND daily and having to put a traditional ND on a camera that has internal ND is adding insult to injury, I agree. As far as variable ND, ever think about why they put that feature in the FS5 MKII and FS7 MKII and not the Venice? Makes one wonder, doesn't it? I have not shot with it but have read a few posts where people are saying things about potential IR pollution and or some of the weird artifacts that are possible with traditional Variable ND filters. I do know that all six of the Variable NDs I own (Tiffen, B&W and Hoya) all soften the image and can add nasty artifacts if they are over rotated. Something to think about, vari ND built in sounds like a killer feature but at what cost to image?

Pretty sure the variable ND on the FS5/FS5II/FS7II and Sony's other camcorders with it is electronic and not based on two polarizers like lens-front ND filters are... so the electronic variable ND isn't going to be subject to the compromises from polarizer-based variable NDs.

That's not to say that the electronic variable ND doesn't cause image issues--I haven't seen any on any of the FS5 or FS7II footage I've looked at or shot--but the technology is completely different, so it's not really something you can lump together like that.

 

[Thomas Smet]

Same here - really would be.

Then again, I'm shocked that the GH5/S shoots 10-bit HD 50p and 60p but NOT 10-bit HD VFR modes (like 36, 48)... even at firmware 2.3... soooooo I'm optimistically cautious.

To be fair to Panasonic I would never really consider the VFR formats as a high quality option anyway. The method of rendering the frames just isn’t all that spectacular. That isn’t to say they couldn’t easily add 10bit and they probably should but they didn’t and to me it’s not really a big deal since I would never use VFR anyway. Even if it did scale in a high quality format I’m still kind of put off that it’s HD vs 4k. I will enjoy shooting with slow motion once it can be 4k. That’s why I limit myself to 60p slow motion at this stage.

 

[Mickey G]

DSLR/mirrorless = video game console controller

Traditional style video camera = keyboard/mouse

Both have their place!
IMO console controllers are simpler, obviously smaller and you really have all the controls you essentially need at your fingertips. KB/M is larger, more programmable and can fit way more control to many more specific buttons albeit at the expense of a larger footprint for better or worse.

Personally for me if I'm just out shooting b-roll or a project that I just need good visuals and I have the control of how to achieve that then I'll take the DSLR form-factor (and small size) every time, I feel like I can shoot and manipulate all the controls w/o taking my eye away from the images or relocating my hand/finger away from the shooting position (sort of like a console controller), this allows me to focus more on the creative aspects of shooting as opposed to the technical side of manipulating the tool.
However for studio environments or projects where you have to rig a bunch of gack to the camera I have to have a proper video/cinema camera.

 

[Run&Gun]

It's a chicken-or-egg debate...some will never see it that way.

I find mirrorless and DSLR cameras to be vastly superior in ergonomics and usability - and you would have to pay me twice the rate to shoot on anything but them these days - but some grew up with traditional cameras and will love those 'real' cameras.

I didn't so maybe that's the disconnect.

I am blazing fast with a stills camera that shoots video.

And you have to pay me double the rate to shoot video with a dslr over a real camera...

 

[Run&Gun]

DSLR/mirrorless = video game console controller

Traditional style video camera = keyboard/mouse

Weird. I find it exactly the opposite. To me real cameras with real lenses are the video game controllers with real switches and knobs and dials that allow me to just shoot without thinking and anything else(even some digital "cine" cameras) is the keyboard/mouse. The only time I have to go into the menu on my Vari is to change scene files or format cards. Pretty much everything else is a physical switch or dial and it has a dedicated screen for audio and TC, separate from Video, unless you want to overlay it.

 

[Run&Gun]

I think the reason that we aren't seeing internal variable ND on higher end cameras is because there are some image quality trade-offs/compromises that the manufacturers know about that would be unacceptable at the higher levels where things, like the Venice are directed, but are acceptable at the fs5/fs7 level.

 

[filmguy123]

To be fair to Panasonic I would never really consider the VFR formats as a high quality option anyway. The method of rendering the frames just isn’t all that spectacular. That isn’t to say they couldn’t easily add 10bit and they probably should but they didn’t and to me it’s not really a big deal since I would never use VFR anyway. Even if it did scale in a high quality format I’m still kind of put off that it’s HD vs 4k. I will enjoy shooting with slow motion once it can be 4k. That’s why I limit myself to 60p slow motion at this stage.

Oh interesting, I didn’t know about this.

Can you tell me more about the VFR quality issues with the way it renders?

Why is it better to do 50/60p VS VFR?

 

[Thomas Smet]

Oh interesting, I didn’t know about this.

Can you tell me more about the VFR quality issues with the way it renders?

Why is it better to do 50/60p VS VFR?

For me it’s two things.

1. The fact that it’s limited to HD is not optimal for 4k projects. If a project needs to be 4k for whatever reason I can’t see compromising the quality for slow motion.

2. The quality of the down conversion is not as good. Typically pixel binning or a form of line skipping is used to dump down a full stills sensor down to HD resolution. The scaled version is not the same caliber as the quality of 4k or HD shot at normal frame rates. It’s perfectly ok in some cases but for me I moved away from other DSLRs and the GH1, GH2, and GH3 to eliminate this inferior form of down conversion.

When one shoots 60p with a Panasonic camera they are shooting what the sensor and DSP were designed to handle. So 4k is scaled as well as the camera can provide and the same is true for HD. The image quality of the 60p is just as good per frame as the 24p or 30p. This is why I prefer to use 60p for slow motion vs the VFR formats. Yes it isn’t a lot of slow motion but it’s clean.

I understand sometimes the production may value accurate slow motion vs accurate quality but for me I try to limit that as much as possible.

So I don’t view the lack of 10bit as a huge deal breaker for VFR because frankly it’s just not a professional format to begin with. This is also why I greatly prefer cameras with cropped slow motion options like the Pocket 4k. 120p cropped HD may be more difficult to shoot but it should be vastly cleaner and better looking than 120p from the GH5.