(Rumored) Panasonic FF mirrorless

Throw in the ability to use the big name FF lenses like Canon and Nikon with great AF and we have a winner. But this level of collaboration just seems unlikely.
 
I was reading this thread in anticipation. Wondering when you all would stop arguing about FF vs S35 and come to the conclusion that you could do both on a full frame sensor with a crop.

From what I can tell with my very limited math skills, an 8K full frame sensor should yield:

5-something K super35 crop

4K m43 crop

I'm guessing at least a 2K super16mm crop.

It really is the perfect sensor/resolution size to cover all the bases.
Even if it doesn't record 8K in FF mode but just downsamples to a nice 4:4:4 4K, that would be great.

the m43 mount has a flange to focal distance of 20mm. The new Nikon Z mount is 16mm for full frame.
If the new Panasonic (and hopefully Olympus) mount is about the same, maybe 15mm or so, a smart m43 adapter could be provided that allows the use of m43 lenses on the new sensor, automatically switches the cameras to 4K m43 mode mode that provides basically the same image quality and low light ability as a GH5S but hopefully with IBIS.

If they go this route an provide this functionality, I don't see how we could lose. Unless they do something stupid like take off a headphone jack or make a tilting screen rather than fully articulating.

I'd love to see this, with the ability to shoot a compress raw option as an added bonus.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Unless they created a new mount that can be adapted to m43 lenses which in effect means it can be adapted to just about anything else. Imagine having a single camera that can use m43 glass, APS-C glass and FF glass natively.

M43 glass for 3840 wide stills/ 4k video
APS-C glass for 5120 wide stills/scaled down to 4k video just like the GH5
FF glass for 7680 wide stills/8k video that can have a perfect ratio scale to 4k and 2k video or a cropped version for 4k and 2k video at 4/3" and 2/3" sizes.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how I missed this. Apologies. Thanks for the exact numbers.
 
Yes, it sounds great but too good to be true. Although Panasonic would be the company that would try it along with 4:2:2 10bit codecs. If so, how much would we pay for this camera? $3,500

I am having a tough time seeing an official EF mount on a Panasonic camera though.
 
Bassman2003 said:
Yes, it sounds great but too good to be true. Although Panasonic would be the company that would try it along with 4:2:2 10bit codecs. If so, how much would we pay for this camera? $3,500

I am having a tough time seeing an official EF mount on a Panasonic camera though.
Click to expand...

Just as tough as using EF lenses on m43 cameras. It all comes down to the adapters and what the flange distance is for the new FF mount. Electronic controls are a totally different story but:

A. Metabones and now 3rd parties have done a decent job reverse engineering the EF specs
B. For film making does the electronic control really matter? I mean aren't you all using cine lenses anyway?
C. A ton of people have been using EF lenses on m43 cameras cameras for years with or without the electronic control at 100%. This is why it would be an odd move to not at least have a mount that can be adapted. Doesn't mean Panasonic will be the one doing the adapting but if they make a FF camera with the video capabilities of the GH5/GH5s and a mount where it is physically possible you better believe Metabones and all the new players will jump on that very quickly.
 
We know JVC attempted something like this with a s35mm sensor and a m43 mount where either m43 glass or adapted glass could be used and the sensor would use the crop mode appropriate for the lens image circle size. Panasonic would just need to take it a step further and create a lens mount that allowed adapting of other FF lens formats or adapting down to m43.

Again not sure if it is possible due to the flange distance needed for m43 and FF formats like EF but honestly if any company would attempt something like this it will without a doubt be Panasonic. M43 has a track record of adapt any lens you want to it and I think Panasonic would want to continue that trend.

Another key advantage to adapting a m43 lens to the FF mount would be the potential use of a SpeedBooster when shooting in 4/3" mode. The advantage of course would be the added stop of light on a sensor that may not be a low light king if it does have 44mp on a FF sensor. The disadvantage would be limiting to 4k video recording and the longer FOV vs FF. Would get users at least back to a s35mm look however with the added benefit of an extra stop of light. Then you really have four methods to use the camera.

1. m43 glass for 3840 wide stills/video.
2. Adapted glass with SB for 3840 wide stills/video with an added stop of light and a s35mm FOV and DOF.
3. APS-C glass for 5120 wide stills/scaled 4k video or 5k anamorphic for a s35mm workflow.
4. FF glass for 7680 wide stills and 8k/4k/2k video.

Since a large portion of GH4/GH5/GH5s film makers already own some level of EF glass this would really be an amazing set of options.

I of course left out DCI 4096 wide video because I'm not sure the sensor could go that wide for 8k. Thats a 50mp sensor for 4x3 8192 wide and while I guess thats possible that would hit the sensitivity and dynamic range potential even harder. The 8k goal for Panasonic was always intended for broadcast anyway so I think they would aim for 7680 for now. I'm sure the camera could still do a scale down of 4k DCI 4096 however with no problem at all using their advanced form of scaling they developed for the GH5. I'm pretty sure I could live with "just" 7680 for now.
 
I would rather they go with a more traditional 3:2 ratio at full frame. 36x24mm.

I mocked this up a while back. The problem is the odd number for the vertical height at 8192px wide. It would have to be one pixel higher or lower. Although you would no longer be at 3:2 anymore if you did that. So the better solution would be to add a couple pixels and then just have a slight crop. Something like 8194x5462px.
For reference, the numbers are not entirely exact.

8K-ff35-sensor-2018-09-03.png
 
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Samuel H said:
A 1.5x "software" crop from a FF sensor and an APS-C sensor with a 1.5x "hardware" crop will have exactly the same FoV and DoF. So that 170mm is 4.7ish.

Regarding noise, it depends on whether the big sensor is reading all the surface or is skipping lines. If it just has bigger pixels, or has more of them but reads them all and then properly averages that information (instead of skipping rows and/or columns) then it will have less noise at the same ISO, and this difference will (at the same tech level, which is something you'll never find in real life, but well...) exactly counteract the f/ difference. So, at the same tech level (again...) a 75mm f/2.8 on FF at ISO 200 will have the same FoV, DoF and noise as a 50mm f/2.0 on APS-C at ISO 100.

After all that stuff levels up, what you end up with is that a FF f/2.8 zoom or f/1.4 prime is available and not all that expensive, whereas a f/1.4 zoom or f/0.7 prime for m43 is, well, not. So there's not much reason to go FF if you're going to stop it down to f/5.6 anyway because you don't want your DoF to become too shallow, and you don't want super-sharp images either (MTF on FF lenses is higher than the adequately-transformed m43 or APS-C counterparts, but you'll hardly notice that even at 4k, it's more of a thing for 40+ Mpix still images).

Personally, I think I'm going to be super happy with the p4k, and the one feature that that will eventually make me go back to FF is killer AF that works better than what I can get focusing manually. No current camera offers that, but at some point it will come. And then I'll have, once again, just one camera for both stills and video.
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Thanks for your reply. So you’re saying that as a starting point, ISO/noise level is double on a 4/3 vs a FF? I know all
sensors are different etc but that’s interesting to use as a rule. That ISO 1600 on GH5 equals ISO 3200 on A7r2 sensor-size-wize (IN THEORY then the sensors are of course different in other aspects.)
 
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Not twice but two stops, actually. Which doesn't mean it has twice the noise because that's a curve and who knows how it evolves at different gain levels. What it means is that IN THEORY you have the same noise in m43 at ISO 400 as you'd have in FF at ISO 100, or APS-C at ISO 200.

Does this match real-world data? Well, kind of, yes (a6500 is a slightly below its target but it's the same sensor from the a6300 so maybe old tech by today's standards)
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Com...mix-DC-GH5-versus-Sony-A6500___1236_1149_1127
 
I guess we'll see what happens, but with the body size of the GH5 and the body size of the A7S it shows that a FF vs M43 sensor size isn't the main contributor to body size, it has mostly to do with lens sizes.

If they can get a FF mirrorless body in a roughly GH5 size body footprint, but allow for a 4K crop to m43 sensor size and allow for all the m43 glass via an adaptor than that is really killer. It means at home you could use the FF sensor on Zeiss Milvus or other heavy glass. Need to travel, bring some tiny m43 lenses and go. It's the lenses, and 2x reach, that gives m43 the true advantage.

With a cropped FF sensor you'd get better DR and noise even in m43 crop mode, too, per my understanding, so depending on what Panasonic does was this it COULD really become a all around better solution.

Now that said, one big caveat may be the likely loss of IBIS. But I'm sure that will change in the future as things progress. IBIS is part of what makes the GH5 such a killer travel camera - you really need to bring less stabilizing rig with you for video.

Either way I am very curious to see how this pans out, and how it stacks up to the EVA1. From the specs I am reading the EVA1 may not have much of a place potentially. If this is an 8K sensor that downsamples (or even a 6K) with a FF mode, crop mode, and takes M43 lenses, and is smaller/lighter, and does 4k 60p Internal 10-bit 422... hmm...
 
Companies can get these bodies down even smaller to something like a full-frame Sony RX1R (built-in lens), but I think they make these cameras bigger on purpose. I think the majority of photographers really like to feel like they are holding a solid camera.
 
filmguy123 said:
I guess we'll see what happens, but with the body size of the GH5 and the body size of the A7S it shows that a FF vs M43 sensor size isn't the main contributor to body size, it has mostly to do with lens sizes.

If they can get a FF mirrorless body in a roughly GH5 size body footprint, but allow for a 4K crop to m43 sensor size and allow for all the m43 glass via an adaptor than that is really killer. It means at home you could use the FF sensor on Zeiss Milvus or other heavy glass. Need to travel, bring some tiny m43 lenses and go. It's the lenses, and 2x reach, that gives m43 the true advantage.

With a cropped FF sensor you'd get better DR and noise even in m43 crop mode, too, per my understanding, so depending on what Panasonic does was this it COULD really become a all around better solution.

Now that said, one big caveat may be the likely loss of IBIS. But I'm sure that will change in the future as things progress. IBIS is part of what makes the GH5 such a killer travel camera - you really need to bring less stabilizing rig with you for video.

Either way I am very curious to see how this pans out, and how it stacks up to the EVA1. From the specs I am reading the EVA1 may not have much of a place potentially. If this is an 8K sensor that downsamples (or even a 6K) with a FF mode, crop mode, and takes M43 lenses, and is smaller/lighter, and does 4k 60p Internal 10-bit 422... hmm...
Click to expand...

Yeah seems like it will make the EVA1 irrelevant other then for the people that need a camcorder.
 
NorBro said:
Companies can get these bodies down even smaller to something like a full-frame Sony RX1R (built-in lens), but I think they make these cameras bigger on purpose. I think the majority of photographers really like to feel like they are holding a solid camera.
Click to expand...

Exactly - A7S is too small, GH5 is much better. Yet the A7S has a FF sensor. Shows that the size advantage of M43 isn't a smaller body, it's smaller lenses. Having a GH5 size body + small m43 lenses (or access to large, FF glass) is brilliant. There may be no reason for a m43 size sensor if you can still have m43 sizes... basically, you can have your cake and eat it too.
 
NorBro said:
Some more info (could be false): https://www.43rumors.com/ft2-confirmed-and-unconfirmed-details-of-panasonic-ff-camera/
Click to expand...

A 30mp sensor is not enough for true 8k but considering how Panasonic defined the GH5 as having 6k with a 20mm sensor that same math could be used with a 30mp sensor to achieve 8k video. Especially from the anamorphic perspective. Could this be the sneaky way Panasonic gets to their 8k goal?

Part of me is ok with that since it maximizes the low light and dynamic range potential of the camera. Even from a stills perspective I'm more than happy with 30mp stills vs 10mp stills from the GH5s.
 
My thoughts are that there is a usage/purchase gap between a mirrorless camera and an EVA-1 or C200 style camera. I think by now the companies have to know that making the mirrorless better or keeping it down does not affect EVA-1 prospective buyers. (Except Canon!). I have had my companies for over 15 years and I still have not purchased an EVA-1 or C series camera. They are just not a fit for what I do. I did buy a GH5 and will happily buy a GH6. So it comes down to - "Do you want to sell me something or not?" I have made this point about Canon forever. They could have been selling me more lenses but not if I stop using their cameras for video work.

As to a Panasonic FF I do not know. I do photography work and with the variance of photo work, you really need an eco system which Panasonic does not have right now. So I am not going to sell my Canon gear just because the mythical FF sensor size was achieved. So I am not quite sure how this helps them. Especially if this camera comes out without IBIS. Then I will really be scratching my head. In my view, only hardcore, mainly scripted shooters can be totally happy without IBIS. It is just a great tool and help for one man banders' like myself. I will never purchase any large sensor camera without IBIS. They just went down this path with the GH5s. Can't imagine they would go for round two.
 
If anyone's going to borrow JVC's 'Variable Scan Mapping' idea then I definitely see Panasonic as the ones to do it.
 
I think lack of IBIS on their FF mirrorless would be more a technical limitation than deliberate omission and I'm personally not holding my breath for that.

Of course I could dream about that implementation, with a smart adapter to m43 lenses in crop mode that still allows Dual IS, and a few newly announced FF lenses for the new mount with Dual IS, and an electronic VND built in, etc.

But I'm not holding my breath, at least for gen 1.

Personally I don't think the lack of ecosystem matters at all, but I say that as one who has always mixed and matched lenses, used adapters, etc. I don't really see that as a problem, either.
 
NorBro said:
Companies can get these bodies down even smaller to something like a full-frame Sony RX1R (built-in lens), but I think they make these cameras bigger on purpose. I think the majority of photographers really like to feel like they are holding a solid camera.
Click to expand...

Heat sinks, fans, extra processing power, etc.... all take up room. Often the extra size is justified.

filmguy123 said:
Exactly - A7S is too small, GH5 is much better. Yet the A7S has a FF sensor. Shows that the size advantage of M43 isn't a smaller body, it's smaller lenses. Having a GH5 size body + small m43 lenses (or access to large, FF glass) is brilliant.
Click to expand...

Yes, I love how I can easily carry my Panasonic G6 with a full kit of 8mm + 14mm (and wideangle adapter) + 25mm + 60mm primes + Aputure A.Lav all in one very small camera bag for vlogging with.
 
And the latest today is an FT5 with "99% Accuracy" that the camera has "way more than 30mp".

https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-the-new-panasonic-ff-has-way-more-than-30-megapixels/

So, there's been a lot of past rumors about Panasonic's organic sensor tech. It would seem surprisingly soon for that technology, but "way more than 30mp" makes me think that this may be it... that's a lot of megapixels. Unless Panasonic is really focusing on resolution to the determent of lowlight, etc. (seems unlikely as they have just shown an emphasis on less megapixels with the GH5S).

But a higher megapixel resolution sensor really does seem to indicate that crop modes may be a big focus... a camera that truly operates well with all lenses on the market -- FF, M43, and APS-C/S35 -- from pretty much any lens mount -- would be super, super cool.

Very interesting.
 
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