Rumor: Canon 4k super35 camera

Piolet said:
You seem to be basing whether this camera will "meet muster" entirely on specs alone. And you're mainly upset because it misses a few extra things that are important to you. You certainly have that right, but it's plausible that those same things aren't as important to someone else who might like this camera for other reasons. To discount the entire camera based on just a few specific specs seems like an overreaction. A camera is more than just specs. Maybe you should try it out, examine the image quality, and see how it handles before deciding.
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I've shot two films on a 5D and one on an EX1. Neither of those "meet muster" for cinematic, theatrical release. Do they look good? Yes. For our $10k budget films they looked terrific. I am certain that one could pick up this Canon and shoot some terrific looking footage. But that's not the sole point. There is a whole lot of massaging that goes into a feature film for theatrical release. And that source footage has to hold up for several generations. I just can't see the 50Mbps 4:2:2 codec holding up to being pushed around in post. And being a long-GOP codec, it's going to HAVE to be transcoded straight away to something frame based just to get frame accurate timecode on it. What you call "a few extra things" are crucial pieces in a feature workflow. Trying to coordinate 100 people in post around a sequence of video is no small feat. As I've said before, if this camera had been targeted to the small indie like the AF100, where it would be shot, cut, and delivered by one or a couple of people, then I'm sure it would be just fine. If it had been targeted at broadcast where it's Mpeg2 codec is a defacto standard, then terrific. But the "few specific specs" it's missing make this thing a non-starter for the market Canon claim they want to get to. And the price puts it out of reach of the primary market who could overlook what it's missing. I get that you like the camera, and it may well be ideal for you or others similar to you. Congratulations. Canon has found buyers for their other video cameras over the years, though certainly not many. I don't see this as any different. I will go on record right now and predict that RED will sell 5x as many Scarlets (at current pricing) than Canon will sell C300s (at current pricing). Want to take that friendly wager?
 
J Bellari said:
... when Canon DIDN'T KNOW what they were doing, they released the Full Frame 5D Mark II and sold oodles of bodies and lenses for under $3K to video production companies and aspiring filmmakers worldwide. Now, 3 years later, with all the pro help and feedback in the world, they release a $20K S35 chip camera recording to MPEG with $7K and above lenses...
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Quoted for truth.
 
PerroneFord said:
I will go on record right now and predict that RED will sell 5x as many Scarlets (at current pricing) than Canon will sell C300s (at current pricing). Want to take that friendly wager?
Click to expand...

No because I think you're correct. IMO Jannard got to learn about the Canon cam a while ago and bought the Scarlet up for a Nov. 3 launch with a brand new order book. Keeping up the demand will be the next big hurdle, hope they can cope with that .. and it's bug free of course.

Cheers.
 
J Bellari said:
I am critical here because Canon is the same company with the 2/3" 4K blowdryer, the 120MP sensor and everything in between
available to them when they deem it is profit time, and INSTEAD SITS on what is technically available now waiting
for someone else to lead...
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A more likely explanation is the technology is not ready yet. Maybe it's not economical yet or it's too difficult to manufacture in volume or maybe they're still tweaking it. It's one thing to prototype this stuff and quite another to mass produce it and have it be rock solid reliable for your customers. Those things you mentioned were shown at Canon Expo2010, which is a Canon tech demo that only goes around once every 5 years I think. They also showed a lot more wild stuff like the multi-shot camera. But just like concept cars, it's a long road to get this to production.

However, it is possible that some of this technology is ready but they hold it back for strategic reasons. Like if the economy goes into the toilet, companies might not release new products as fast. That's not evil. That's actually good for the environment. We buy too much stuff.

Or maybe they're afraid the new tech won't sell. That could happen too. A lot of new products are big flops that lose a lot of money. Perhaps the C300 will be a flop. We don't know yet. I hope not though, because I'd like Canon to continue to compete here.

PerroneFord said:
But the "few specific specs" it's missing make this thing a non-starter for the market Canon claim they want to get to.
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I think the camera will find a home somewhere, somehow. Maybe the mix will be more towards television production than feature film. Television studios are here too so they're part of Hollywood. There's nothing stopping anyone from using this on a feature if they want to. You just seem to think it's very unlikely, but isn't it up to them to decide?
 
PerroneFord said:
I've shot two films on a 5D and one on an EX1. Neither of those "meet muster" for cinematic, theatrical release. Do they look good? Yes. For our $10k budget films they looked terrific. I am certain that one could pick up this Canon and shoot some terrific looking footage. But that's not the sole point. There is a whole lot of massaging that goes into a feature film for theatrical release. And that source footage has to hold up for several generations. I just can't see the 50Mbps 4:2:2 codec holding up to being pushed around in post.
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From Stu Maschwitz...

"I contributed a few key VFX shots to the film and therefore got to live with the footage up close for days. I’ll have more to say later about this camera and Red’s 10-minutes-nigh announcement, but for now just know that the C300’s footage looks terrific. Great dynamic range, low noise, and a nice, clean image."
http://prolost.com/blog/2011/11/3/canon-c300-and-mobius.html

It is targeted to be a higher-quality replacement for places where the 5D is already used in Hollywood productions - and as also a new lightweight filmmaking option. You agree this is light years ahead of the 5D, right? Also a nice camera for the next Slumdog Millionaire or 127 Hours...

Ask yourself: why is the 5D being used for a particular shot? Usually the answer is image quality (especially low light) within a small size & weight constraint.

Having a camera with very good image quality (huge leap over 5D) that is lightweight, doesn't need heavy batteries, doesn't overheat, is tiny, can do genlock, has timecode, can record for a long time to media... just fits a nice niche.

PerroneFord said:
And being a long-GOP codec, it's going to HAVE to be transcoded straight away to something frame based just to get frame accurate timecode on it. What you call "a few extra things" are crucial pieces in a feature workflow. Trying to coordinate 100 people in post around a sequence of video is no small feat.
Click to expand...

For a Hollywood feature film:

For offline edit: transcode to DNxHD or ProRes at low bitrate, using a LUT to go from log space to 709. Not much different from pulling in Alexa footage.
For finish: just convert to DPX files. They are already in the right log space.

How is this hard?

PerroneFord said:
I will go on record right now and predict that RED will sell 5x as many Scarlets (at current pricing) than Canon will sell C300s (at current pricing). Want to take that friendly wager?
Click to expand...

Nah, RED will sell lots of Scarlets. The C300 is more of a niche thing, part of an overall family of cameras that will come out over the next 5 years. Also the C300 hasn't actually had "current pricing" announced (they say that in the DPreview article) - but it is likely to be $16K. Oh, and Scarlet's price is going up on Jan 1.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Come on!!!! Both cameras are cool. Period! But lets talk Scarlet and it's HISTORY. Started as 3k for 3k. Couldn't deliver. Then sat in vaporware and came out as, OK this will be more professional and not for soccer moms. Alright, more months went by, more fail. Then they show Scarlet at trade shows with it's power on. We think, here we go, scarlet is coming. Then the tsunami hits Japan and scarlet is delayed. Alright, fair enough. Then we get this skateboard video http://vimeo.com/24794595 filmed on a working Scarlet. Now we're chomping at the bit! Anyday now, right? Then we get more trade show hits showing working Scarlet. Any day now, right? By the end of the year they are saying for the fixed 8x 2/3s Scarlet. Well, as I see it and bare with me.... Nov 3rd is approaching, and RED has got wind of what canon is up to. Is it possible that they just gave up this whole 3 year timeline to pick a fight with Canon and decide to drop scarlet as we understood it, as a 2/3's 3k or 4k package because they FAILED? Only to repackage Epic with less specs? That's all it is. Why is this even called Scarlet, and not Epic-S? What, drop some frame rates and paint the hood grey and all of a sudden it's Scarlet? It's just re-writing code, a cheaper processor, and taking functionality out of Epic, so that you don't really have to adjust your production line.
So what and where did the 2/3's concept go? It FAILED. Would you have bought a 2/3s 3K Scarlet? For lets say $8000? Ready to shoot with monitor, hdmi out, and battery? But modular to accept an SSD and redmote? No real urge to make the red rocket purchase because your existing system should handle 3k pretty well? (Come on, if you buy Scarlet as it stands, you know you will eventually buy the Red Rocket, don't kid yourselves).
They had to deliver something because people were talking vaporware for years. Red could not hold on to the notion of Scarlet as we knew it before Nov. 3rd. SO they made a RED (Canon) T2i out of Epic and call it Scarlet. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool package and will do well. But for the first time buyer investing in RED, you're gonna spend LOTS of money buying something that just isn't quite so...EPIC.
Still, many will be happy. To me, it's the B Cam for Epic owners already invested in hardware to cut RED footage.
 
bruceallen said:
From Stu Maschwitz..."I contributed a few key VFX shots to the film and therefore got to live with the footage up close for days. I’ll have more to say later about this camera and Red’s 10-minutes-nigh announcement, but for now just know that the C300’s footage looks terrific. Great dynamic range, low noise, and a nice, clean image."http://prolost.com/blog/2011/11/3/canon-c300-and-mobius.htmlIt is targeted to be a higher-quality replacement for places where the 5D is already used in Hollywood productions - and as also a new lightweight filmmaking option. You agree this is light years ahead of the 5D, right? Also a nice camera for the next Slumdog Millionaire or 127 Hours...Ask yourself: why is the 5D being used for a particular shot? Usually the answer is image quality (especially low light) within a small size & weight constraint.Having a camera with very good image quality (huge leap over 5D) that is lightweight, doesn't need heavy batteries, doesn't overheat, is tiny, can do genlock, has timecode, can record for a long time to media... just fits a nice niche.For a Hollywood feature film:For offline edit: transcode to DNxHD or ProRes at low bitrate, using a LUT to go from log space to 709. Not much different from pulling in Alexa footage.For finish: just convert to DPX files. They are already in the right log space.How is this hard?Nah, RED will sell lots of Scarlets. The C300 is more of a niche thing, part of an overall family of cameras that will come out over the next 5 years. Also the C300 hasn't actually had "current pricing" announced (they say that in the DPreview article) - but it is likely to be $16K. Oh, and Scarlet's price is going up on Jan 1.Bruce Allenwww.boacinema.com
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Yes I think this thing is significantly better than a 5D. If that is the target then Canon did well. Funny you mention slumdog. Since that was shoot RAW on the SI2K.
 
dustylense said:
<br>
So what and where did the 2/3's concept go? It FAILED. Would you have bought a 2/3s 3K Scarlet? For lets say $8000? Ready to shoot with monitor, hdmi out, and battery? But modular to accept an SSD and redmote? No real urge to make the red rocket purchase because your existing system should handle 3k pretty well? (Come on, if you buy Scarlet as it stands, you know you will eventually buy the Red Rocket, don't kid yourselves). <br>
They had to deliver something because people were talking vaporware for years. Red could not hold on to the notion of Scarlet as we knew it before Nov. 3rd. SO they made a RED (Canon) T2i out of Epic and call it Scarlet. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool package and will do well. But for the first time buyer investing in RED, you're gonna spend LOTS of money buying something that just isn't quite so...EPIC. <br>
Still, many will be happy. To me, it's the B Cam for Epic owners already invested in hardware to cut RED footage.
Click to expand...
<br><br>I had never any problem rendering/editing at 4K (and I did some tests with 3K footage from RED) on my i7 workstation & 580 GTX SOC GPU. No need of a Red Rocket here. But I agree, a Scarlet X is more an Epic-S and you need to invest seriously in hardware & accessories to work with. I guess a lot of hobbyists will sell their Scarlet X , realizing that the Scarlet X only belongs to cinema sets.
 
dustylense said:
Come on!!!! Both cameras are cool. Period! But lets talk Scarlet and it's HISTORY. Started as 3k for 3k. Couldn't deliver. Then sat in vaporware and came out as, OK this will be more professional and not for soccer moms. Alright, more months went by, more fail. Then they show Scarlet at trade shows with it's power on. We think, here we go, scarlet is coming. Then the tsunami hits Japan and scarlet is delayed. Alright, fair enough. Then we get this skateboard video http://vimeo.com/24794595 filmed on a working Scarlet. Now we're chomping at the bit! Anyday now, right? Then we get more trade show hits showing working Scarlet. Any day now, right? By the end of the year they are saying for the fixed 8x 2/3s Scarlet. Well, as I see it and bare with me.... Nov 3rd is approaching, and RED has got wind of what canon is up to. Is it possible that they just gave up this whole 3 year timeline to pick a fight with Canon and decide to drop scarlet as we understood it, as a 2/3's 3k or 4k package because they FAILED? Only to repackage Epic with less specs? That's all it is. Why is this even called Scarlet, and not Epic-S? What, drop some frame rates and paint the hood grey and all of a sudden it's Scarlet? It's just re-writing code, a cheaper processor, and taking functionality out of Epic, so that you don't really have to adjust your production line. So what and where did the 2/3's concept go? It FAILED. Would you have bought a 2/3s 3K Scarlet? For lets say $8000? Ready to shoot with monitor, hdmi out, and battery? But modular to accept an SSD and redmote? No real urge to make the red rocket purchase because your existing system should handle 3k pretty well? (Come on, if you buy Scarlet as it stands, you know you will eventually buy the Red Rocket, don't kid yourselves). They had to deliver something because people were talking vaporware for years. Red could not hold on to the notion of Scarlet as we knew it before Nov. 3rd. SO they made a RED (Canon) T2i out of Epic and call it Scarlet. Don't get me wrong, it's a cool package and will do well. But for the first time buyer investing in RED, you're gonna spend LOTS of money buying something that just isn't quite so...EPIC. Still, many will be happy. To me, it's the B Cam for Epic owners already invested in hardware to cut RED footage.
Click to expand...
Meh. The 2/3 concept was stupid and I stated so publicly here and elsewhere. And no I would not have bought it even at $3K. I had no need for it. Tossing a nano flash on my EX1 gets me most of the way there.
 
Until now, I did not see one person that has said that they are buying the C300 and countless on this site and many others that have put a deposit on the Sarlet-X. If you see my post you will see that I am far from a RED fanboy, but this is a revolution. In fact I have always admired there technology but not the religious belief and marketing that accompanies it. I always thought that they just needed to rationalize there product line to be much successful. Not everybody needs a camera that shoots 5k at 120 fps. Just take the same tech and downscale it a bit to normal users for a much affordable price, this is what the the ScarletX is and I have to admit that this product is a game changer.

Now back to Canon. Firstly I don't think that a company like Canon is a niche company. I don't feel that they will be happy if they sell a product in the hundred. They are no phantom type of company. I think they completely overestimate there goodwill factor, they surfed on a big wave with the HD-slr craze and it went up a bit too much to there head. Apart being a Canon fan-boy, the reaction on the internet has been unanimously negative. And I am not only talking about the dslr price range public, but by all that are buying a ScarletX $ 15 000 camera.

If they did not have the new asic etc for the development of the Camera, just price it right to the level of its capabilities. Damn those asic in this camera are driving the same XF $ 3500 camera!!!!!! This camera price at $ 6000 to $ 8000 (even before the red announcement) would nave been well received and a success. People are saying it compares well to the Alexa which shoots natively at more than 300 mbits, 444 and has 2.5 stop more of DR. For everyone who thinks these are just details, we don't have the same criteria in terms of image quality. Even more problematic is the C300 value compared to the Sony F3. Apart from the native 50 mbit codec of the C300, it is trounce in any other department, with again about 2 stop more DR, 444, even autofocus etc. This was before the announcement of the Sarlet-X, now I would like to see this camera sell well for $ 20 000.
 
Released in 2012

Released in 2012

According to Canon's Kubo:

Full-frame 4K dSLR will be released in 2012
The Full-frame 4K Eos C will be based on the 1D-x

Article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fav.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fdocs%2Fnews%2F20111104_488632.html
Another rticle here (Can't link individual articles in this blog, its 11/04/2011 post):
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdigitalcamera.jp%2F

 
I'm just a prosumer with lots of EF/EF-S glass (as I'm sure thousands are out there just like me), and looked forward to the C300. Of course, being born from the 5D, per their own admission, wasn't expecting $16 - $20K. How does one of the major reasons for the 5D's success, ie $2500, not factor in to the design and release of the C300? Given the features, I think it's a great 7K - 9K camera and I might have made the leap in price.

Now the dilemma. I like the form, features, and hope it does well for continued (ie less expensive) development, but am worried if it does that Canon will think they are pricing it 'right', which is obviously not the case.

-cp
 
I'm still seriously considering the C300 as it could be a fantastic doc camera, & will hold off judgement until I can test.

We have a crew of 35 in the field working on an extended doc, & if this camera was available today we might buy a dozen. Also a variety show that starts filming soon where we'll need another half dozen cams, & the C300 might be a great choice there too.

Also considering the Scarlet, but not for these gigs.
 
Danielvilliers said:
Until now, I did not see one person that has said that they are buying the C300 and countless on this site and many others that have put a deposit on the Sarlet-X. If you see my post you will see that I am far from a RED fanboy, but this is a revolution. In fact I have always admired there technology but not the religious belief and marketing that accompanies it. I always thought that they just needed to rationalize there product line to be much successful. Not everybody needs a camera that shoots 5k at 120 fps. Just take the same tech and downscale it a bit to normal users for a much affordable price, this is what the the ScarletX is and I have to admit that this product is a game changer.

Now back to Canon. Firstly I don't think that a company like Canon is a niche company. I don't feel that they will be happy if they sell a product in the hundred. They are no phantom type of company. I think they completely overestimate there goodwill factor, they surfed on a big wave with the HD-slr craze and it went up a bit too much to there head. Apart being a Canon fan-boy, the reaction on the internet has been unanimously negative. And I am not only talking about the dslr price range public, but by all that are buying a ScarletX $ 15 000 camera.

If they did not have the new asic etc for the development of the Camera, just price it right to the level of its capabilities. Damn those asic in this camera are driving the same XF $ 3500 camera!!!!!! This camera price at $ 6000 to $ 8000 (even before the red announcement) would nave been well received and a success. People are saying it compares well to the Alexa which shoots natively at more than 300 mbits, 444 and has 2.5 stop more of DR. For everyone who thinks these are just details, we don't have the same criteria in terms of image quality. Even more problematic is the C300 value compared to the Sony F3. Apart from the native 50 mbit codec of the C300, it is trounce in any other department, with again about 2 stop more DR, 444, even autofocus etc. This was before the announcement of the Sarlet-X, now I would like to see this camera sell well for $ 20 000.
Click to expand...

Yeah. It seems, generally, the DSLR shooters have turned the tables and are, in using the predominant Internet terminology, "hating" on Canon now instead of Red.
 
The Cinema ones are $45K

They must be ridiculously good.

I can photograph galaxies on my $1500 telescope lol
 
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