Rumor: Canon 4k super35 camera

[Piolet]

I for one will be genuinely surprised if either Canon or Red come out with 2/3" camera announcements on the 3rd.

From all of my dealings with Canon in the last couple of years, the success and impact of having large-sensor video in their DSLRs has clearly not gone unnoticed with them, and they've seemed genuinely excited by the possibilities of it (which the announcement of this new centre in LA confirms). Similarly (and in spite of the 2/3" prototype Scarlets Red have produced) I'm pretty sure Red recognises that most of the momentum in video camera sales at the moment, lies in large-sensors - that was always the main source of hype around the notion of Scarlet, affordable S35mm recording in decent format.

Yeah, I wonder how this will play out. I don't think Canon will announce a 2/3" camera either, at least not yet. The only bombshell RED could do is kill 2/3" Scarlet and release EPIC-S at some ridiculously low price. They could do this and take a loss, but it would anger the EPIC-X/M owners and RED has a history of raising prices and features, not lowering them. Also, dumbing down Epic to make an Epic-S would take a lot of engineering man hours and I really doubt RED would have been able to do that in this short a time. They are consistently late.

The other wildcard is they have a secret S35 Scarlet version all along and will let it loose, but again, RED has never been successful at developing one camera, much less multiple cameras in a timely fashion.

 

[Grug]

Yeah, I wonder how this will play out. I don't think Canon will announce a 2/3" camera either, at least not yet. The only bombshell RED could do is kill 2/3" Scarlet and release EPIC-S at some ridiculously low price. They could do this and take a loss, but it would anger the EPIC-X/M owners and RED has a history of raising prices and features, not lowering them. Also, dumbing down Epic to make an Epic-S would take a lot of engineering man hours and I really doubt RED would have been able to do that in this short a time. They are consistently late.

The other wildcard is they have a secret S35 Scarlet version all along and will let it loose, but again, RED has never been successful at developing one camera, much less multiple cameras in a timely fashion.

If they've already got the body and processing for the Scarlet 2/3" together, I just don't see that it would be a big deal to fit in their existing S35mm sensor and offer 3k/4k/whatever-k at lower bitrates and with fewer features than the Epic - the size of the sensor isn't going to impact the camera's processing much - the volume of data it would be spitting out the camera's processing would be the same as it would for a 2/3" sensor with the same resolution.

 

[Jay Birch]

It would be quite ironic if Canon announce a 2/3" 4K camera and RED announce an S35 Scarlet as a reply. The fixed Scarlet seemed ideal for a B-cam... I hope RED haven't gone crazy with their changes.

I think alot of people are crying out for a good, affordable 2/3" camera.

Anyway... I hope the 1D announcement will cast some light over what a dual Digic V camera can achieve, video wise... this is their flagship DSLR, so it could come with a nice 4:4:2 codec and decent 1080p

 

[mjmcneese]

I really doubt that the Nov 3 announcement is going to be this Service and Research Center...cuz...what's left to announce if it has already been announced.

I would lean towards Barry's prediction if it were not to be announced in Hollywood. 4k...yeah, that's great. But Hollywood is cinema, and like-it-or-not cinema is DoF and big sensors. Like most people here, I would love to see an XL H1 with a APS-C sensor and EOS mounts with XF recording and 10-bit out. I'll buy that the day it comes out. HOWEVER, Canon is historically slow to respond to trends in the industry. And, like Barry has mentioned, we know that Canon has been working on this hair dryer cam for a while. So...it's interesting.

 

[Centro]

With all the praise their large sensor cameras have got from Hollywood, I don't know why they would make such a huge announcement for a camera that is a more TV/doc oriented 2/3.

And in the "specs war" I doubt Red will want to put out a scarlet that more or less matches the Canon. I would imagine they would want to be on top of it.

Or maybe I' m just wishing

 

[Piolet]

If they've already got the body and processing for the Scarlet 2/3" together, I just don't see that it would be a big deal to fit in their existing S35mm sensor and offer 3k/4k/whatever-k at lower bitrates and with fewer features than the Epic - the size of the sensor isn't going to impact the camera's processing much - the volume of data it would be spitting out the camera's processing would be the same as it would for a 2/3" sensor with the same resolution.

It's mainly a mechanical design issue. The sensor and lens mount would all have to change and if the body is already laid out for a certain mechanical package, you basically have to start over if you change to whole bigger sensor size. This then affects engineering drawings, tooling, circuit board mounting, etc. Another big issue is cooling. With a sensor many times bigger than 2/3" and running at high frames rates, they'd have to totally redesign it to account for the added heat dissipation.

Even without these mechanical packaging issues, it would take significant effort to revise the firmware to a new sensor that is not exactly the same. It seems like you'd just plug and play, but it's never this way in the development of complicated electronic equipment, in my experience.

 

[f64manray]

I would be totally baffled and dumbfounded if canon released a 2/3 sensor cinema camera after the huge splash the 5DII made over the last few years. S35 is cinema. I think their dedicated cinema video cam will be S35, and the 1DsIV or whatever it will be called will serve FF needs.

 

[mjmcneese]

Just read the release from Canon about the Support Center. IMHO, it really sounds like it's gonna be a place to showcase products, and given that it's located in Hollywood, I'd lean towards these products being geared towards the cinema folks. Probably not the high-end cinema folks. Nor do I think they are going to cater to the low-end consumer spectrum either, hence it is called the Professional Technology and Support Center.

 

[Barry_Green]

Just read the release from Canon about the Support Center. IMHO, it really sounds like it's gonna be a place to showcase products, and given that it's located in Hollywood, I'd lean towards these products being geared towards the cinema folks. Probably not the high-end cinema folks. Nor do I think they are going to cater to the low-end consumer spectrum either, hence it is called the Professional Technology and Support Center.

Why wouldn't you think it would cater to the high-end folks? That's what Canon does. That's exactly who Hollywood is. Hollywood isn't indie-land, it's the highest of the high budget, the top of the ladder.

That's one of their new PL zooms. I can't find a price on it, but I'd be gobsmacked if it was under $25,000 and I'd bet it's more along the lines of $50,000 to $60,000. Fujinon has a line of Premier 4K lenses that are somewhere around $80k, and I'm sure Canon is competing with them. The Alura is actually Fujinon's cheap PL zoom, and that's $25,000 or so.

I mean, which makes more sense -- to open a Hollywood service center to service $80,000 lenses, or to open a Hollywood service center to introduce a $4,000 AF100 competitor?

The very fact that they're opening up this center in Hollywood is what points to it NOT being a consumer-oriented product announcement.

Canon is primarily a lens company, first and foremost. Is it conceivable that they could create a body to use their lenses? Sure, I guess, but that's not what they're centered on. They make lenses. And they now make PL lenses. And that's fairly new for them. Canon has traditionally made ENG lenses, but now they're making PL lenses, because all the F900's that were used in dramatic production have dried up and are being replaced with, or will be replaced with, F65's and F3's and Epics and Alexas, so Canon is moving into PL glass. I would expect them to have a fully-rounded product line, from a $20k Angenieux Optimo DP competitor, up to an $80k Fujinon Premier competitor, and a presence in Hollywood makes perfect sense for that.

And doesn't have anything to do with an AF100/FS100 competitor.

But, hey, we'll all see three weeks from now.

 

[mjmcneese]

Why wouldn't you think it would cater to the high-end folks?

I'm prolly showing my ignorance about the filmmaking community and culture in Hollywood: I only say that because I can't picture ASC'd DPs walking into a Canon Resource Center to check out some cine lenses. That's when Canon comes to you - at least that's what I've experienced in the past - OUTSIDE of SoCal.

Back when the Varicam came out I had a Panny rep come to Central Ohio on two occasions to to demo the 27F from New Jersey. I'm not saying that in order to prove anything, but just to give you context on how much I know about the manufacturer-consumer relationship in SoCal. Silly Midwestern conjecture...that's all

 

[mjmcneese]

The very fact that they're opening up this center in Hollywood is what points to it NOT being a consumer-oriented product announcement.

Agree 100%

I don't think this is gonna be an announcement of an AF/FS100-killer-type product. Just doesn't make sense, given all the location, the "Professional" title of the Center, and all. If it is a camera, it's probably more on par with the F3. Or, like I guessed a week ago, this could be an announcement of some cine lenses...there's definitely a market for lenses now.

But, IMHO, I don't think we're gonna see anything on par with the highest of the high in terms of cinema products. No Alexa-fighter. No iPanchros-quality lenses. Again, my opinion.

 

[Barry_Green]

. No Alexa-fighter. No iPanchros-quality lenses. Again, my opinion.

Totally agreed. Making a camera body that competes against the Alexa would be extremely outside of Canon's comfort zone; they've never made a camcorder more expensive than the XLH1 before.

And, double-agreed on the no-Cooke situation. Canon makes zooms for broadcast. Canon makes lenses that Hollywood films and television series are shot on. They could make a series of primes, I guess, but why? The market's brimming with primes, and a tv show doesn't have time to faff around with primes... no, I think it's high-end glass, and something or other to do with Technicolor, at their hollywood service center. And if there's a camera body involved, it'll be the hair dryer. :thumbsup:

 

[Ben Totman]

if the only camera they announce is the hairdryer and it has a 4k 2/3" sensor with a fixed lens, theyre going to disappoint everyone but a select few, that doesnt mean the camera will be useless, but alot of 5d and apsc users are waiting around for canon to give them an upgrade. my guess is that we see some sort of f3 competitor, if theyre smart they will also announce an fs100/af100 competitor, they would be stupid not to enter that market, they would most likely sell a lot of them and keep their huge fan base. now realistically i dont see that happening because i have no faith in canon.

 

[Razz16mm]

I don't think Canon would produce the hair dryer form factor, certainly not for anything intended to appeal to the pro market. I could see them producing a camcorder form factor similar to the XF series though with an APSC size QHD (4k HDTV format) sensor and EOS mount scaling to 1080p for on board recording, maybe with some kind of 4k raw or RGB port for an external recorder too but what would you use for a recorder?

The large format low end production camera market is getting too hot for them to ignore.

 

[GaryinCalifornia]

my guess is that we see some sort of f3 competitor, if theyre smart they will also announce an fs100/af100 competitor, they would be stupid not to enter that market, they would most likely sell a lot of them and keep their huge fan base. now realistically i dont see that happening because i have no faith in canon.

Either 4k or it has to be an F3 with slog and 1-120fps... to complete or out do the F3
And there was the EOS camera rumored at 5k.. that's your AF100 or FS100...

of course just wild guesses on my part... guess we could start a pool and the winner gets the camera of his choice....

just though wasn't the F3 listed at over 16k and came it at 13.3k at first... so maybe the canon will come in at 12k an

 

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

That looks quite small for a cinema grade 10x zoom, no?

Edit: Actually, from another angle, not so small, but it's thinner than the old(-ish) Cookes at least, however the Cooke zooms tend to be wider at the wide end, so there's why the Canon is thinner.

 

[hawaj]

These cameras are now on some test shooting around Chicago area.

 

[SPZ]

These cameras are now on some test shooting around Chicago area.

Pics or it didn't happen

 

[Hunter Hampton]

I saw them in Chicago too- snagged this pic... Obviously covered in some sort of housing.. Reminds me of the big white L lenses- Seems to be a 4k s35mm camera from here? #occupycanonchicago

 

[David G. Smith]

Pics or it didn't happen

I have heard rumors from my friends in SO-Cal about the New Canon camera shoots there and, "Out in the Desert"... but no pics that I have seen. If they are shooting with a new camera around LA, and other big cities, and can keep it a secret until 11/03/11, then they will have accomplished something big. Come on... Where is the filmmaking technical media paparazzi when you need them?!!!