Rig sticks and steadi..
- Thread starter morgan_moore
- Start date
Very nice... a lot of potential there.
I think you are onto two a few things of which firstly is that a system that's not based on the damn 15 mm rails and something anybody can get easily could be a big win for your connectors and extras.
The FF idea is really neat and maybe a mod to it for the drive with a Velcro strap with a rubber underside for even lighter and quicker setup... or there are so many options you can imagine. A decent follow focus should not cost what most do now and we are getting run over the coals by the few making them.
Looking forward to hearing more
I think you are onto two a few things of which firstly is that a system that's not based on the damn 15 mm rails and something anybody can get easily could be a big win for your connectors and extras.
The FF idea is really neat and maybe a mod to it for the drive with a Velcro strap with a rubber underside for even lighter and quicker setup... or there are so many options you can imagine. A decent follow focus should not cost what most do now and we are getting run over the coals by the few making them.
Looking forward to hearing more
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Very nice... a lot of potential there.
I think you are onto two a few things of which firstly is that a system that's not based on the damn 15 mm rails and something anybody can get easily could be a big win for your connectors and extras.
The FF idea is really neat and maybe a mod to it for the drive with a Velcro strap with a rubber underside for even lighter and quicker setup... or there are so many options you can imagine. A decent follow focus should not cost what most do now and we are getting run over the coals by the few making them.
Looking forward to hearing more
Explain the velcro strap?
I did plan (and buy) rubber timing belt (has teeth) and velcro straps with (cable grips) the plan to mount build like that - was too rigid
Have also been working on 'hoover belt' version - rubber has awesome grip but cant find a method of shortening to tension to different lens diameters apart from 'one time' use of cable ties (which I have of course tried too !)
Another plan was to make the skate wheel slide down the T bar to create tension in a fixed lenght belt - but the engineering is a little 'heavy' ie tolerance driven - and tolerances = Zacuto prices or a cr)p product - my fixed skate wheel is always aligned with the lens
Indeed the long term market is for the joins for DiYers and assebled rigs for pros you dont have time to tinker
The camping strap is the current winner and you can cross it for canon or leave uncrossed for nikon (or vice versa) depending on your prefered diection of FF
S
ah yes! I forgot about crossing for Canon and Nikon and velcro strap might not do so well there but then again it might. If the inside of the strap had thin rubber and the outsideside was the velcro fuzz. Infact you could almost attach( glue, stick ) it to the wheel itself and then the strap would loop around the focus and then double back and connect to itself.
I am not convinced my ZF's with their very stiff focus would work with say the camping strap? Some sort of rubber or something might have to be used in order to stop slippage.
I am not convinced my ZF's with their very stiff focus would work with say the camping strap? Some sort of rubber or something might have to be used in order to stop slippage.
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Those velcros are exactly what I bought 20 of and then rejected
The straps I use are stong enough to hang off and can easily be tightened hard enough to unscrew the camera from the mounting or at least flex a lens like the 24-105 - enough that I have mentioned it in the disclaimer page on the website
To function only a fraction of the available force is required however
Really I could not beleive it when it worked having spent many hours on far more complex solutions
They are the same straps used by me to hold my waterhousing onto the front of the surfboard in the various boradcam experiments I have done - very strong
I have been working on a little 'mounting rest' to place under the lens to counter that force and also reduce vibration of the lens when the rig is subject to forces of running or speedy steadicam operation (known to merlin owners as the gezornenplatz!)
Ulitimately I agree - that this solution is a work in progress and a rubberised gripping surface, or a soft toothed geared belt (and opposing gear on the lens and skate wheel) will be 'the most professional' solution
The timing belt I purchased and then put round the lens and also used as the strap was rock solid - it could literally turn a starter motor - but was cumbersome and difficuly to adjust in lenght - I think a one time calbel tie solution would work - but I would not 'cross strap' to accomodate brand swap of lenses
I think efficacy actually is most dependant on the lense diameter - large = good
I have tested on 28 3.5 nikkor, 50 1.4 nikkor, canon 24-105 and admidedly it is not so good with my 100-300 nikkor, of course the position (adjusted by sliding the manfrotto plate) has an impact, I dont have zeiss but do have a stiff as a ***** 135/2 nikkor manual - I will report back
The great part of this FF solution however is the ability to access as a single operator who is handholding the rig without destabilisiing the shot
(did you watch closely the pull as Will gets into his motor - I think this is an awesome "single operator 5d shot")
The fact that the wheel faces the operator aids them in pulling to marks too
Again I have been working on a dial system for 'marking' the lens moves which will most liekley be included in sold rigs - you can see me pull to marks in my 'on the pull' vimeo effort BTW
Please keep comments coming Im really keen to come up with affordable solutions that really work - someone else will probably knwo just the thing
S
The straps I use are stong enough to hang off and can easily be tightened hard enough to unscrew the camera from the mounting or at least flex a lens like the 24-105 - enough that I have mentioned it in the disclaimer page on the website
To function only a fraction of the available force is required however
Really I could not beleive it when it worked having spent many hours on far more complex solutions
They are the same straps used by me to hold my waterhousing onto the front of the surfboard in the various boradcam experiments I have done - very strong
I have been working on a little 'mounting rest' to place under the lens to counter that force and also reduce vibration of the lens when the rig is subject to forces of running or speedy steadicam operation (known to merlin owners as the gezornenplatz!)
Ulitimately I agree - that this solution is a work in progress and a rubberised gripping surface, or a soft toothed geared belt (and opposing gear on the lens and skate wheel) will be 'the most professional' solution
The timing belt I purchased and then put round the lens and also used as the strap was rock solid - it could literally turn a starter motor - but was cumbersome and difficuly to adjust in lenght - I think a one time calbel tie solution would work - but I would not 'cross strap' to accomodate brand swap of lenses
I think efficacy actually is most dependant on the lense diameter - large = good
I have tested on 28 3.5 nikkor, 50 1.4 nikkor, canon 24-105 and admidedly it is not so good with my 100-300 nikkor, of course the position (adjusted by sliding the manfrotto plate) has an impact, I dont have zeiss but do have a stiff as a ***** 135/2 nikkor manual - I will report back
The great part of this FF solution however is the ability to access as a single operator who is handholding the rig without destabilisiing the shot
(did you watch closely the pull as Will gets into his motor - I think this is an awesome "single operator 5d shot")
The fact that the wheel faces the operator aids them in pulling to marks too
Again I have been working on a dial system for 'marking' the lens moves which will most liekley be included in sold rigs - you can see me pull to marks in my 'on the pull' vimeo effort BTW
Please keep comments coming Im really keen to come up with affordable solutions that really work - someone else will probably knwo just the thing
S
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Buck Forester
Well-known member
Hey Morgan, you da man! This looks cool! A few questions:
1. Apparently it is designed to match up with The Blackbird?
2. How much does the rig weigh by itself?
3. Have you put a price on it yet?
I think I'll get one of these things for backcountry use, it appears light enough and the Blackbird looks a little smaller than I thought, which is good. Gracias.
1. Apparently it is designed to match up with The Blackbird?
2. How much does the rig weigh by itself?
3. Have you put a price on it yet?
I think I'll get one of these things for backcountry use, it appears light enough and the Blackbird looks a little smaller than I thought, which is good. Gracias.
Morgan, congratulation, ingenious idea. I am a little confused on how you adjust for the differences in lens lengths when using your focusing system. Are you saying that the sliding the Manfrotto plate gives enough adjustment? That appears to be only about ¾ of an inch. Is that enough for lenses in the handheld range or would a mechanical adjustment be necessary?
Norm
Norm
Heya Buck
I have been a longtime user of the merlin and pilot and a few other systems and recently tried a Blackbird on a hike. I do a lot of hiking and filming and as you know weight is just about number 1 with anything you take. I was impressed with it but found that its weight for me and collapsed size a bit too much. Any extra weight needs to be in the form of another lens if I can spare the space. Currently my tripod and and anything I take is carbon fibre and a merlin which folds down nicely to slide into just about any outer mesh pouch on the pack.
Morgan's handheld type rigg there surely could be handy if the weight can be kept to a minimum. I would forgo an extra lens for something like that in the pack. That in combo with the Merlin would be pretty sweet imo.
I have been a longtime user of the merlin and pilot and a few other systems and recently tried a Blackbird on a hike. I do a lot of hiking and filming and as you know weight is just about number 1 with anything you take. I was impressed with it but found that its weight for me and collapsed size a bit too much. Any extra weight needs to be in the form of another lens if I can spare the space. Currently my tripod and and anything I take is carbon fibre and a merlin which folds down nicely to slide into just about any outer mesh pouch on the pack.
Morgan's handheld type rigg there surely could be handy if the weight can be kept to a minimum. I would forgo an extra lens for something like that in the pack. That in combo with the Merlin would be pretty sweet imo.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Mass had been a big consideration
Frankly the forces from a 5d a just so low compared to a big camera I think you could even drill holes in half the tubing to lower mass !
I think the rig without the frotto plate is around 620 grams - against 900grams for a 24-105 canon lens
titanium bolts would cut the weight more but would add a couple of hundred $ at cost price ! google M6 25mm titanium bolt
I aslo reckon the frotto plate is over engineered and have been thinking of attacking one with a drill to save weight
the cost Im reckoning on £350 UKP - I get interest to do a reasonable run then £300
----
Stabilisers - it is not specific to the BB, I have tested on merlin, BB and Pilot,
I absolutely assure that this radically improves the performance of either the merlin or blackbird rig because of the increas in rotational inertia in the pan plane - judge my shots - Im not a long time 'operator'
-----
Lens lenght and follow focus, you may note that I have the camera mounted on the front of the plate
Careful positioning of the plate on the rig then gives movement of about 4-6cm
I can just go between the 24-105 and the nikkor 50 1.8, nikkor 28 and 14mm nikkor also the 100-300 zoom with that range
of course you can loosen the clamp and make an adjustment but that is a PITA
SMM
Frankly the forces from a 5d a just so low compared to a big camera I think you could even drill holes in half the tubing to lower mass !
I think the rig without the frotto plate is around 620 grams - against 900grams for a 24-105 canon lens
titanium bolts would cut the weight more but would add a couple of hundred $ at cost price ! google M6 25mm titanium bolt
I aslo reckon the frotto plate is over engineered and have been thinking of attacking one with a drill to save weight
the cost Im reckoning on £350 UKP - I get interest to do a reasonable run then £300
----
Stabilisers - it is not specific to the BB, I have tested on merlin, BB and Pilot,
I absolutely assure that this radically improves the performance of either the merlin or blackbird rig because of the increas in rotational inertia in the pan plane - judge my shots - Im not a long time 'operator'
-----
Lens lenght and follow focus, you may note that I have the camera mounted on the front of the plate
Careful positioning of the plate on the rig then gives movement of about 4-6cm
I can just go between the 24-105 and the nikkor 50 1.8, nikkor 28 and 14mm nikkor also the 100-300 zoom with that range
of course you can loosen the clamp and make an adjustment but that is a PITA
SMM
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
A further thought on stabilising in the bush where weight is important
I have configured the rig to operate with my own mass added and just merlin gimbal used
Basically this is created with more T joins and more tubing
I have aquired some 30mm stainless bar (costly) which I am going to get machined into masses to add other 'intertial possibilities' (you may have seen my mountain bike shoot on http://www.vimeo.com/5359163)
Once you are making your spar from cheapo aluminium pipe you can afford to experiment - I would look to creating something with facility for attaching ones waterbottle, 80-200 or some other neccesary mass at the bottom
Get drilling
S
I have configured the rig to operate with my own mass added and just merlin gimbal used
Basically this is created with more T joins and more tubing
I have aquired some 30mm stainless bar (costly) which I am going to get machined into masses to add other 'intertial possibilities' (you may have seen my mountain bike shoot on http://www.vimeo.com/5359163)
Once you are making your spar from cheapo aluminium pipe you can afford to experiment - I would look to creating something with facility for attaching ones waterbottle, 80-200 or some other neccesary mass at the bottom
Get drilling
S
Buck Forester
Well-known member
Thanks for the info, Morgan, sounds good.
Hey Brad, I appreciate the feedback on the weight/bulk of the Blackbird. I've been going back and forth on which one to get. I think I'll stick with the Merlin based on your experience. Super gracias el grande maxo.
Hey Brad, I appreciate the feedback on the weight/bulk of the Blackbird. I've been going back and forth on which one to get. I think I'll stick with the Merlin based on your experience. Super gracias el grande maxo.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Id say that the placement of other FF for a lone operator are plain dumb - its cool full stop
with a bit of backing it could be really cool - as I said above Im working on other materials/solutions
Again - DL the file, and judge the move into the car then laugh at the other rig makers who dare post nothing
S
squig
Veteran
Sounds and looks cool (not down with the yellow grips though, is that garden hose? some bike handlebar grips would be cool. I think thick grips are important for stabilization, it's something users can easily mod but you can market it easier if it looks pro which it does except for the grips.) After writing that I noticed you wrote "pipe stops not arrived yet".
I'm curious why you went for 12mm, sure it's lighter but 15mm is industry standard and means users can easily mount all sorts of **** to it but if you make some add ons like the redrock micromount and/or an LCD arm then it wouldn't be an issue.
Have you considered carbon fibre tubing? I found a mob here that sells it for a reasonable price http://www.carbonfibreexpress.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_33&products_id=55
http://www.carbonfibreexpress.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_33&products_id=54
I really like the follow focus it's so simple it's genius and you have so many color choices with skatey wheels!
I just got some cavision 15mm rods and mount and just gripping the underside of the rods with my left hand is a big improvement on handheld.
I think it would be much better to build your own lightweight plate. I never attach a quick release plate directly to my MKII, its attached directly to my cavision rod mount with my miller quick release attached to the underside of my rods so I can go from sticks to stabilizer. It's important that it be designed so that you can change batteries while attached. Again it would look a lot more pro with your own plate, of-course if you used 15mm rods then users could use any plate.
Thanks for the effort, we've all had the same problem trying to tame the MKII.
I'm curious why you went for 12mm, sure it's lighter but 15mm is industry standard and means users can easily mount all sorts of **** to it but if you make some add ons like the redrock micromount and/or an LCD arm then it wouldn't be an issue.
Have you considered carbon fibre tubing? I found a mob here that sells it for a reasonable price http://www.carbonfibreexpress.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_33&products_id=55
http://www.carbonfibreexpress.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_33&products_id=54
I really like the follow focus it's so simple it's genius and you have so many color choices with skatey wheels!
I just got some cavision 15mm rods and mount and just gripping the underside of the rods with my left hand is a big improvement on handheld.
I think it would be much better to build your own lightweight plate. I never attach a quick release plate directly to my MKII, its attached directly to my cavision rod mount with my miller quick release attached to the underside of my rods so I can go from sticks to stabilizer. It's important that it be designed so that you can change batteries while attached. Again it would look a lot more pro with your own plate, of-course if you used 15mm rods then users could use any plate.
Thanks for the effort, we've all had the same problem trying to tame the MKII.
squig
Veteran
here's the cavision rods I'm using- http://www.cavision.com/rods/minidv.htm
I jack the front bracket under my bigger lenses.
this setup with your arms, FF, shoulder mount, a loupe and a genus lightweight mattebox would be sweet.
I jack the front bracket under my bigger lenses.
this setup with your arms, FF, shoulder mount, a loupe and a genus lightweight mattebox would be sweet.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Grips..
It might be hose - but if it works and keeps the price down that is good - it also happens to feel lovely
This rig is designed to throw on a stabiliser - so reduction of mass is a paramount consideration
Bike grips etc are heavy - I have grips from a leaky sea and sea housing too heavy but very robocop looking - all rejected
Fundamentally the rig is very balanced so gripping the handles is not really how to operate - you see I bascially balance on two forefingers on little tabs under the main side spar except when countering the FF torque
Unlike other rigs I am trying to minimize contact to three very flexible points that create isolation from the body and use a grip of similar force to the grip on a steadicam gimbal - its called very very gentle
You will note that steadicam gimbal grips are round and not shaped like bike grips etc, this roundess allows one to move the camera round an axis - watch the drop past the case that opens the closing shot of the film - its also in the BTS video
The plate choice
- cuts engineering on in house, and therefore cost
-gives a fore aft adjustment for alligning different lenses with the FF
- swaps instanly to my stick and stabiliser that both have female plates attached
-many people use and own those plates already
- you can change battery with the 24-105 - not tested other lenses
-incedentally there is a plate (nonQR) so no third party pplate is required at all but IMO gaining QR is worth the extra mass and cost of using a plate
building a 'solid' QR plate that is thin is an engineering challenge I can assure you - I beleive Zacuto plates cost a simlar amount to the whole rig
Wheels
The skate wheels are specifically white for 'marking' with a felt tip pen which rubs off if you use the right pen
Tube Choice
-the construction needs to be light and only strong enough for mounting a 5d - not a red or panny
-this is a standard dimension so widely avaialble for DIYers to modify
-it is fat enought to be held by Arri grip clamping (see my lowmode mountainbike shots) so you can build extrodianary rigs
-the reduced diameter allows ..
Keeping the rig closer to the gimbal when on a stabiliers reducing the need for counter mass
reduces the size of any joints - reducing mass of the system
reduces bolt length reducing the mass of the system
- a shim could be made to compatibilise with 15mm accessories
Aluminium
is light cheap and easily workable
Carbon fibre is a hazard to work and has marginal S/W improvements
I promise there is much thought in this construction that is a little belied by its apparent simplicity
S
It might be hose
- but if it works and keeps the price down that is good - it also happens to feel lovelyThis rig is designed to throw on a stabiliser - so reduction of mass is a paramount consideration
Bike grips etc are heavy - I have grips from a leaky sea and sea housing too heavy but very robocop looking - all rejected
Fundamentally the rig is very balanced so gripping the handles is not really how to operate - you see I bascially balance on two forefingers on little tabs under the main side spar except when countering the FF torque
Unlike other rigs I am trying to minimize contact to three very flexible points that create isolation from the body and use a grip of similar force to the grip on a steadicam gimbal - its called very very gentle
You will note that steadicam gimbal grips are round and not shaped like bike grips etc, this roundess allows one to move the camera round an axis - watch the drop past the case that opens the closing shot of the film - its also in the BTS video
The plate choice
- cuts engineering on in house, and therefore cost
-gives a fore aft adjustment for alligning different lenses with the FF
- swaps instanly to my stick and stabiliser that both have female plates attached
-many people use and own those plates already
- you can change battery with the 24-105 - not tested other lenses
-incedentally there is a plate (nonQR) so no third party pplate is required at all but IMO gaining QR is worth the extra mass and cost of using a plate
building a 'solid' QR plate that is thin is an engineering challenge I can assure you - I beleive Zacuto plates cost a simlar amount to the whole rig
Wheels
The skate wheels are specifically white for 'marking' with a felt tip pen which rubs off if you use the right pen
Tube Choice
-the construction needs to be light and only strong enough for mounting a 5d - not a red or panny
-this is a standard dimension so widely avaialble for DIYers to modify
-it is fat enought to be held by Arri grip clamping (see my lowmode mountainbike shots) so you can build extrodianary rigs
-the reduced diameter allows ..
Keeping the rig closer to the gimbal when on a stabiliers reducing the need for counter mass
reduces the size of any joints - reducing mass of the system
reduces bolt length reducing the mass of the system
- a shim could be made to compatibilise with 15mm accessories
Aluminium
is light cheap and easily workable
Carbon fibre is a hazard to work and has marginal S/W improvements
I promise there is much thought in this construction that is a little belied by its apparent simplicity
S
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
the long one is 330g http://www.manfrotto.com/Jahia/site/manfrotto/cache/off/pid/3269?livid=107&idx=115
the short one is less of course
this plate is of course over engineered for carrying a 5d, I have however had issues with the thin plate (the one i think zacuto rely on for some solutions) tha frotto do gumming up and leaving my camera jammed to my sticks - the thin plate of course does not have lateral adjust
Personally I would be looking to drill out my plate to shave some grams
on leaving it on the camera (with a bit of rear tale) this looks like a great place to attach a remote release device and or screen shade
---
Supporting the lens
IMO that short lenses like the 50 1.8 nikkor do not need support
lenses with full barrely focus like the 100-300 manual nikkor do not need support to counter the FF forces but do need support in general
Lenses where the focus wheel is at the front like the 24-105 are definite candidates for support - this actually interested me in the cheaper 28-135 which focus barrel is at the rear and the band would have less leverage on the mount
S
the short one is less of course
this plate is of course over engineered for carrying a 5d, I have however had issues with the thin plate (the one i think zacuto rely on for some solutions) tha frotto do gumming up and leaving my camera jammed to my sticks - the thin plate of course does not have lateral adjust
Personally I would be looking to drill out my plate to shave some grams
on leaving it on the camera (with a bit of rear tale) this looks like a great place to attach a remote release device and or screen shade
---
Supporting the lens
IMO that short lenses like the 50 1.8 nikkor do not need support
lenses with full barrely focus like the 100-300 manual nikkor do not need support to counter the FF forces but do need support in general
Lenses where the focus wheel is at the front like the 24-105 are definite candidates for support - this actually interested me in the cheaper 28-135 which focus barrel is at the rear and the band would have less leverage on the mount
S
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
If i made 15mm to 1/2 T joints that would be an option
Im looking at getting that 1/2 to 1/2 T joint perfect in the second run its unnecceary long right now by 5mm - I will also slightly change the rear cubes slotting and tail height bar by a few mm
Once I have my basic T sorted I can move on to all the other options T, rosette handles, sound accesory support, mic boom etc
S
Lee Wilson
Veteran
For my sins - I was once a 'weight weenie' (for those who do not know - this is someone who spends an inordinate amount of time building super-light bicycles for racing) - and one thing I can tell you is that you can pick up bike handle bar grips that weight almost nothing - certainly a lot less that garden hose - they are much more ergonomic, lighter, and inexpensive.
There are, of course heavy grips (160g and upwards) - but grips like Titec 'Pork Rind' and Bontrager foam are super-light - a few grams each - as your from the UK a good guide would be that a 2 pence piece weighs 7 grams.
