Revenge of the Great Camera Shootout Pt2 - Beyond the Alphabet

[Guest]

With only a day to go for part 2 of the Revenge of the Great Camera Shootout, we can gear up for some good old fashioned brand wars. rogar-Smoke(DBG)::kali:

Just for the record...

B-Panasonic GH2
F-Arri Alexa
are the most liked according to one forum

H-F65
C-Epic
A-Sony F3
are all well liked

E-C300
G-Canon 7D (i believe some like the softer look of lower resolution)
honorable mentions

I-Sony FS100
D-iphone
are at the bottom of the pack.

I am going to go through the other thread and make synopsis of what we've been saying on this forum up to this point.

AFter reading several discussions around this shootout, i feel (no numbers) that the Alexa won as best image. The GH2 got best bang for buck. And the F3 was strong.

Amongst critical people, the Alexa, Epic, and F65 stood out above the rest. The F3 crept in occasionally. I think vincent laforet's opinion echoes that precisely: C F A E H

I assume the f65 scored lower because of the minimal changes to lighting and post. which is actually a testament to the beast, imho.

 

[Gillvane]

Nice summary. Looking forward to the unveiling. H was my favorite. I did not like B.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

I think it just goes to show the power of the Internet and marketing how much of a brand war there is. It's like if we don't use or buy a particular camera we are sub-par for some reason. And what's worse in my opinion, is that we buy into the hype that we are sold by the camera makers. When it is them who ends up gaining through camera sales- if we feel inadequate, we have to buy the next camera and that will fix the problem... (When all it really does is add extra cost.) Am I the only one who notices this? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the tech as much as the next guy or gal, but there is more to it then that. And I think that is the point of this whole series.

Anyway, it does surprise me that B continues to rate as high as it does. It is not a bad camera at all- I've used it on several shoots, and i'll continue to use it. But there just seems to be an artificialness / over sharpening going on that can draw attention to itself, or at least to my eye anyway. For me, that put the camera further down the list then it appears to be on this list.

Anyway, I have a sneaking suspision that this is about to get pretty nasty as everyone fights for "their" camera. Let the pissing match commence...

(By the way, I have shot will all but 3 of the cameras in a production environement. So I am keenly aware of the benefits and short comings of almost all of these camera systems.)

 

[Noel Evans]

I think it just goes to show the power of the Internet and marketing how much of a brand war there is. It's like if we don't use or buy a particular camera we are sub-par for some reason. And what's worse in my opinion, is that we buy into the hype that we are sold by the camera makers. When it is them who ends up gaining through camera sales- if we feel inadequate, we have to buy the next camera and that will fix the problem... (When all it really does is add extra cost.) Am I the only one who notices this?

You're definitely not alone there Ryan.

Anyway, I have a sneaking suspision that this is about to get pretty nasty as everyone fights for "their" camera. Let the pissing match commence...

And a good time for a reminder that DVXuser is all about the discussion however I'd ask everyone to have a quick glance over our forum guidelines. As a rule of thumb, if it feels like something you shouldn't / wouldn't say if you were in a room full of people having a discussion, well, you probably shouldn't type it here either.

 

[Fluoro]

There should be more blind tests. They are so funny. They show the emperor often has no clothes. That some of the people who say things like "DSLRs are not a professional tool" can't even tell the difference between a DSLR and a camera costing 80k.

 

[Hidef1080]

I think it just goes to show the power of the Internet and marketing how much of a brand war there is. It's like if we don't use or buy a particular camera we are sub-par for some reason. And what's worse in my opinion, is that we buy into the hype that we are sold by the camera makers. When it is them who ends up gaining through camera sales- if we feel inadequate, we have to buy the next camera and that will fix the problem... (When all it really does is add extra cost.) Am I the only one who notices this?

No, you're not the only one.

 

[Yak]

There should be more blind tests. They are so funny. They show the emperor often has no clothes. That some of the people who say things like "DSLRs are not a professional tool" can't even tell the difference between a DSLR and a camera costing 80k.

I agree in blind tests as well as the image that DSLRs can produce, but remember it is not just the final image that matters, how a camera works on the set also matters how easy is it to set up, what codec does it record in..... So it is not only the finale image it is also how do you get that image. The great news is that it is now possible to create a great looking movie with more affordable gear and as it has always been true having large budgets backed by large studios does not mean that the final movie is worth watching.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

You're definitely not alone there Ryan.

No, you're not the only one.

Yeah! It is always nice to know that everyone hasn't bought in to the hype. I'm all for open, honest, and well reasoned conversation but dogged brand loyalty is beyond me.

how a camera works on the set also matters how easy is it to set up, what codec does it record in.....

For sure- and how much data it produces, how that data is handled through the entire pipeline, the skill set of everyone involved - so many factors that go into it beyond just the image that the camera produces ...

 

[Barry_Green]

I do hope people can behave respectfully. Especially when the results are revealed, and they may or may not coincide with someone's wishes or beliefs.

That some of the people who say things like "DSLRs are not a professional tool" can't even tell the difference between a DSLR and a camera costing 80k.

And this is exactly the kind of thing that we fear may bring the flame wars. This statement can be taken two ways -- it could be taken to say "of course there's a difference, but you (individual person) are claiming there's a difference when you're not even skilled enough to see it." OR, it could be saying "nobody can tell the difference between the two, DSLRs are just as good."

And both sides of the argument will try to use this same "test" and this same footage to "advance their cause."

And that, right there, is the problem. You shouldn't HAVE "a cause." You shouldn't really care what anyone else uses, or how they spend their money. Just buy and use what you like and be done with it.

The problem with what Zacuto's done here, in my opinion, is that they've created a "camera test" where it's basically impossible to evaluate the actual camera itself. Their footage isn't showing what the cameras can do, it's showing what a team of people can do. And I can almost guarantee you that if you prefer "B" and hate "H", that if the team that used "B" had used "H" instead, that you "B"-lovers would probably love "H" better.

And because of that, I think that we can't actually learn anything of value from the "results" of this "test", other than "it's the person behind the camera that matters more than the camera itself." Which is something we've been saying for years and years. Macgregor with an iPhone 4 will produce better images than I could with an F65 -- that should be obvious... even though an F65 is an infinitely superior camera over an iPhone 4, which should be equally obvious.

 

[Gary Huff]

Macgregor with an iPhone 4 will produce better images than I could with an F65 -- that should be obvious.

But it's not really that helpful because it's hyperbole. Of course you behind an F65 will produce better images than Macgregor on an iPhone 4, let's not kid ourselves now. The iPhone 4 has one control: record. The F65 can be run in full manual, and I'd say you know enough on how to use a basic camera system in order to get in the ballpark of what you want.

I've shot with an iPhone 4S, and the quality is nowhere near as good as my HPX-170 or Sedna-ized GH2.

However, I absolutely agree that people shouldn't worry about what others do. They should get the camera they can afford and build their talent and client list until the camera becomes a limitation (if that even happens depending on what is started out with) and go from there.

 

[Ryan E. Walters]

And that, right there, is the problem. You shouldn't HAVE "a cause." You shouldn't really care what anyone else uses, or how they spend their money. Just buy and use what you like and be done with it.

Agreed. And that is one of the points of the "doco" portion of this test.

The problem with what Zacuto's done here, in my opinion, is that they've created a "camera test" where it's basically impossible to evaluate the actual camera itself. Their footage isn't showing what the cameras can do, it's showing what a team of people can do. And I can almost guarantee you that if you prefer "B" and hate "H", that if the team that used "B" had used "H" instead, that you "B"-lovers would probably love "H" better.

There are three parts to this test. What we've seen so far and then an "empirical" portion of the test where everything is kept the same. So those portions should help show more differences on a more objective level.

 

[LyleGorch]

There should be more blind tests. They are so funny. They show the emperor often has no clothes. That some of the people who say things like "DSLRs are not a professional tool" can't even tell the difference between a DSLR and a camera costing 80k.

I agree. The point of the blind test is that it forces the participant into making a choice based not on a "difference" but a "preference", when that choice is in conflict with a preconception of a "quality" all sorts of kooky things happen. Everyone agrees that these cameras are different in the way they render visual information, which one someone likes better than another and why is the hard part.

I think lots and lots people opted-out of playing along and going on record over which camera they might prefer because of the commercial ramifications. . .and, yes, kooky loyalties.

 

[David G. Smith]

Wow, team Zacuto are genius' with milking this shoot out for all it is worth. The count down clock is a nice touch.

Their webmaster is going to be real busy in 20 hrs, 10mins and 10 secs.... 20hrs, 10mins, and 9 secs... 20hrs 10mins and 8 secs... 20hrs 10mins and 7 secs.......

 

[peanutbutter]

Yeah, they are. I don't know why because these tests are pretty lame. I didn't watch the first one and I won't be watching this one. Film is still better, hehe.

 

[TheDingo]

The problem with what Zacuto's done here, in my opinion, is that they've created a "camera test" where it's basically impossible to evaluate the actual camera itself. Their footage isn't showing what the cameras can do, it's showing what a team of people can do.

Part 3 ( to be revealed in August ) will show how all nine cameras performed under the same lighting, and should satisfy those people looking for a more traditional camera test.

 

[Fluoro]

I do hope people can behave respectfully. Especially when the results are revealed, and they may or may not coincide with someone's wishes or beliefs.


And this is exactly the kind of thing that we fear may bring the flame wars. This statement can be taken two ways -- it could be taken to say "of course there's a difference, but you (individual person) are claiming there's a difference when you're not even skilled enough to see it." OR, it could be saying "nobody can tell the difference between the two, DSLRs are just as good."

And both sides of the argument will try to use this same "test" and this same footage to "advance their cause."

And that, right there, is the problem. You shouldn't HAVE "a cause." You shouldn't really care what anyone else uses, or how they spend their money. Just buy and use what you like and be done with it.

Point taken. I did mean it the first way. I was trying to point out that some camera bashing is done by people who seem to camera bash for the sake of it .

I think there IS a place for all cameras whether it's the GH2, D800, AF100, C300 or the F65.

But I see now that my comments were unnecessary.

 

[Barry_Green]

I was trying to point out that some camera bashing is done by people who seem to camera bash for the sake of it .

This is absolutely correct. Seems there's a whole lot of bashing going on also in an attempt by some folks to "tear down" the cameras used by others, in some twisted hope that it will make their "chosen" camera seem better.

Folks, if you're getting hired because of what camera you have, then you're not a cinematographer, you're a rental house. And you will be ditched the minute the next new camera comes into "fashion". Most cinematographers I know of any level of accomplishment don't own ANY camera and don't care what's in fashion, they will rent whatever the current greatest is and use that.

I think there IS a place for all cameras whether it's the GH2, D800, AF100, C300 or the F65.

Unquestionably. And in the right hands, any of them can produce stunning imagery worthy of projection in a theater. And none of them will actually make anyone a better shooter than whatever camera they currently have. (unless they're literally running into the physical limitations of the camera they're currently using). Buying a $500 tennis racquet won't make you a better tennis player -- even though it's unquestionably a better racquet than the $30 plastic one you're using now. But if you're so good a tennis player that your current racquet is actually screwing up shots you could otherwise have made, then the newer racquet makes sense.

 

[Wolfenbarg]

I do wonder how people will react to this test overall. Will people suddenly lust after the cameras that produced the image they liked best? Or will they defend their camera until the death, even going as far as to claim that the DP or colorist were incompetent? I know I'll personally be more inclined to pay closer attention to whatever cameras produced the image I liked best as well as whoever lit those scenes.

 

[EndCredits]

I just want a camera I enjoy to use. 4K has a lot of fun factor to it, as does raw and nice button placement. I saw a review of the F65 and the amount of information/dynamic range in the image was awesome and that sort of stuff would be huge fun to play with.

If nothing else the capability of the low priced cameras is sky rocketing so in a wee while we will even more improvements.

Barry Green, I can't agree with you regarding owning cameras. Surely you own a camera or two, does that make you a rental house? I got my self a HVX202 when they first came out and it was what got me my first jobs, once people got to work with me they liked what I did and the work has continued. Owning a camera can open a lot of doors and if you have the skill you can do a lot with the opportunity.

Some cameras are more fashionable than others and the fashion is changing faster and faster each day so its not as easy to capitalize on any more.

Some one said this is not a test of a camera but a test of a team of people working together, well that's generally how these things are used so it makes sense to look at them in this way. Remember cameras aren't race bikes, there doesn't have to be a winner.

As much as i would love to have an f65 can you imagine the limitations that come with it due to its size and complexity, I bet it would make you lust after a DSLR some times

 

[Jusgorilla]

This test has actually opened up our eyes to the fact that you can use any one of these cameras to produce art, and that it comes down to working at what's infront of the camera, the story, light, acting, the angles and direction. Any one of these cameras can tell your story, and if its a captivating experience, it doesnt matter which camera. only the iPhone and 7D were obvious, and yet still acceptable.

We humans can get a bit emotional at times, i think its a case of making ourselves feel secure in our current commitment and affordability. Of course we want the most expensive best spec camera to begin with, and take it from there to tell the story, but unfortunately if we cant afford the most expensive/highest spec then we must make do with what we have, and these guys at Zacuto have shown us its more than doable with what we have. Heck I'm embarrassed that I got all clingy to my C300 but couldnt even really spot it in the shoot out. I think I know which one it is, but not fully sure, that says alot. It really is a case of "The right tool for the job" and now i'm fully convinced that Im selling my C300 for the FS700, purely because its slo mo functionality will suite my music video making more than what Ive got at the mo.

Infact its insane, just think about it, the shoot out has literally put a bunch of cars on a race track, from aston martin all the way down to a toyota, and sent them around the track, and what we see is that the race wasn't dominated by the car alone, but by the drivers skill and team work.

Its a good thing, and even comforting that we can all relax now and tell our stories. There's no reason to fail any more.

Let this thread be more re-assuring, scientific and informative, and less skirmishing.