Resolve setting for DNG workflow

Clermond

Clermond

Veteran
Sorry guys if there was already a topic for this but I could not find it. I am no colorist and my experience and knowledge about Resolve is low. REC709 calibration on my iMac works pretty well with FCP X and Premiere but not in Resolve. I think I will go for a I/O monitoring sooner or later but my current budget ran all into 7Q plus accessories.

Resolve preview looks flat and bright compared to the ProRes Export.

How should Clip Attributes be set for 7Q DNG? Auto? Data Levels 0 - 1033 or Video Levels 64 - 960?

And how is your Render Setting at the deliver page? Auto? Normally scaled legal video? Unscaled full range data?

How is your setting in Projet Settings / Master Project Settings / Video Monitoring? Video Levels or Data Levels?


Actually I have
- MasterProject Presets / Video Monitoring on Video Levels,
- Clip attributes on Auto,
- Render settings on auto

any help is highly appreciated. Thanks for your time!

EDIT

I added two screenshots:

Resolve Viewer

resolveviewer.jpg



ProRes render

proresrender.jpg
 
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Looks like you've been left hanging there bud. Not sure I can help much - but I've noticed that the preview window on Resolve is also a little less punchy than the prores export.

As regards settings for the export, I usually go for data levels (I don't like the idea of not seeing everything) - but then, I'm in PAL land, so I worry less about those odd NTSC restrictions - and unscaled full range (because the stuff I do is rarely for broadcast and if it is there'd be an online editor to deal with that **** anyway).

Finally, when dealing with the DNGs I set the master project settings and individual settings as described in the CD workflow guide:

1. Right click on the file and select “Edit Cinema DNG Codec Settings”.
2. Then under the CAMERA RAW be sure CinemaDNG is selected from the drop down menu.
3. Set the Decode using method to CLIP (actually this is different)
4. Set the Color Space to BMD FILM.
5. Set the White Balance to As Shot.
6. Select Highlight Recovery.
7. Click Apply

I then add the Rec 709 or Slog2 LUT they provide to the footage so it can be cut and graded off the pro res outputs.

I must say I think their guide isn't very well written (sorry guys - it reads as a little rushed) as I found it a bit confusing (and I'm a native english speaker. From England, where the language was invented, so I feel for you if you're not a native english speaker, or indeed, if you're insufficiently blessed to be born english). I'm vaguely intending to re-write it at some point once I get my head round the process a bit more.
 
EXCUSE MY ANSWERING, IN CONTEXT AND IN CAPS. IT'S SO MUCH EASIER.

Sorry guys if there was already a topic for this but I could not find it. I am no colorist and my experience and knowledge about Resolve is low. REC709 calibration on my iMac works pretty well with FCP X and Premiere but not in Resolve. I think I will go for a I/O monitoring sooner or later but my current budget ran all into 7Q plus accessories.

Resolve preview looks flat and bright compared to the ProRes Export.
THAT'S THE NATURE OF SLOG2. ALSO, RESOLVE MONITOR AND RECORD WINDOWS ARE HOOORRRIIIBBBLLLLEEEE TO PREVIEW WITH. I HAVE A BMD ULTRASTUDIO USB3 TO A PANASONIC REFERENCE STUDIO MONITOR. UNTIL YOU SEE THIS, YOU WON'T EVER GET YOUR COLORS AND CONTRAST RIGHT.

How should Clip Attributes be set for 7Q DNG? Auto? Data Levels 0 - 1033 or Video Levels 64 - 960?
IALWAYS SET ATTRIBUTES TO DATA LEVELS. NEVER TO AUTO. SETTING TO VIDEO CAN RESULT IN CLIPPING ON EXPORT, IF NOT CAREFUL.

And how is your Render Setting at the deliver page? Auto? Normally scaled legal video? Unscaled full range data?
SEE ABOVE...ALWAYS SET TO DATA (UNSCALED)LEVELS

How is your setting in Projet Settings / Master Project Settings / Video Monitoring? Video Levels or Data Levels?
ALWAYS SET TO DATA LEVELS. THIS KEEPS RESOLVE FROM REMAPPING YOUR LEVELS. IF YOU WANT TO EXPORT LEGAL, SET 64-960 ON THE TIMELINE USING THE SCOPES.


Actually I have
- MasterProject Presets / Video Monitoring on Video Levels,
- Clip attributes on Auto,
- Render settings on auto
USING AUTO, ONE NEVER KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT RESOLVE IS USING

any help is highly appreciated. Thanks for your time!
IN THE CAMERA RAW SETTINGS, YOU MAY WANT TO PLAY WITH REC709 INSTEAD OF DNGCINEMA. THE REC709 SETTING RESULTS IN MORE SATURATED COLORS, SUCH THAT YOU MAY NOT WANT THAT LUT. MAKE SURE OTHER SETTINGS ARE AS DESCRIBED BY OTHERS, ABOVE.
 
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As for data vs RGB levels it's my understanding that really depends on what will be happening downstream and what applications will be using it. Also you shouldn't get clipping, either the full range will go into 0-1023 or it will be scaled to 64-960 (so, yes you'd loose a little colour depth but black would be at 64 and white at 940). It gets more complicated because some applications read beyond 960 for superbrights.

YMMV and just another example of why post has one foot in the legacy past which makes life so much more complicated, especially when you have applications that try to automagically guess the colour spaces. You have to test test test in your own setup.

As for monitoring. Funnily enough i'm running a DeckLink -> SDI -> HDLink -> Displayport -> Dreamcolor and also a 30" HP panel off a quadro 4000. There's bugger all difference between the dreamcolor and my big HP. Which either means the HP is very good or my particular DC is bad! So my conclusion is if you choose your monitor carefully and have some way of side by siding it to some calibrated then you can sometimes get away with it. And as i'm not mentioned the O7Q yet (which seems to be in every post from me) perhaps we can use that as a calibration reference!

cheers
Paul
 
Thanks so much guys for your detailed answers. I went through these tutorials how to treat 7Q DNGs and it's quite similiar to my BMDPCC RAW files. In almost all cases I shot BMDPCC in ProRes, that's why I am not too familiar with Resolve. The question is "why is preview in Resolve different from rendered files?" As I see it also an other files it seems it's no specific 7Q / DNG thing.

I also asked at Creative Cow / Resolve Forums and I was answered

Resolves display window is not color managed. You are meant to look at picture
through a video io card (decklink) on broadcast monitor.
Click to expand...

If I interpret this statement right it comes down to what Cuervo said and why he uses a BMd Ultra Studio
and Panasonic reference monitor. Thanks also for explaining Data / Video leves.
 
paulcurtis said:
As for monitoring. Funnily enough i'm running a DeckLink -> SDI -> HDLink -> Displayport -> Dreamcolor and also a 30" HP panel off a quadro 4000. There's bugger all difference between the dreamcolor and my big HP. Which either means the HP is very good or my particular DC is bad!
Click to expand...

I was following up a discussion about the Dreamcolor in a German editing board and I read that the DC needs a RGB progressive input for correct calibration. If it's not exactly RGB progessive calibration will be switched off. Maybe you check this?
 
paulcurtis said:
And as i'm not mentioned the O7Q yet (which seems to be in every post from me) perhaps we can use that as a calibration reference!

cheers
Paul
Click to expand...

I'm planning on using the O7Q as a reference monitor. At the end of the day, I'll use it on set as a reference, so it makes sense to grade from it too. But then, I'm just a cameraman. I rarely grade my work (not for want of asking, most editors I come across do a terrible job of it) and it's rarer still for me to edit it. Plus a lot of what I do just ends up in the web, so it all gets a bit messed up and mushed up by the time it gets to the viewer anyway. Which is another way of saying I really don't need an expensive reference monitor for what I do...
 
I've also got an HP Dreamcolor running off Thunderbolt>BMD minimonitor>Fujifilm IS-mini (LUT box)> HP Dreamcolor. I generated a LUT for the LUT box with Spectracal Studio5 calibration software. My point is that getting accurate colors displayed is a non-trivial and expensive process. The latest release of Resolve 10 + Spectracal will perform a LUT calibration of the Resolve native monitors. I haven't tried this yet, perhaps sometime next week.
 
Clermond said:
I was following up a discussion about the Dreamcolor in a German editing board and I read that the DC needs a RGB progressive input for correct calibration. If it's not exactly RGB progessive calibration will be switched off. Maybe you check this?
Click to expand...

yes, that's right. It has to be fed an RGB signal hence the tortuous route of DeckLink Extreme -> HDLink -> DisplayPort. Most lower end video output hardware does YUV and the DC doesn't take SDI (go figure...)

The DreamEngine is active and working. It's just i feel that some 'normal' LCD monitors have come on a long way over the years. Take the iPad dispay, they're very accurate displays.

thanks for the idea though,
Paul
 
cuervo said:
I've also got an HP Dreamcolor running off Thunderbolt>BMD minimonitor>Fujifilm IS-mini (LUT box)> HP Dreamcolor. I generated a LUT for the LUT box with Spectracal Studio5 calibration software. My point is that getting accurate colors displayed is a non-trivial and expensive process. The latest release of Resolve 10 + Spectracal will perform a LUT calibration of the Resolve native monitors. I haven't tried this yet, perhaps sometime next week.
Click to expand...

Interesting workflow, is that spitting out RGB then? Not YUV?

Why the LUT box? What does that give you?

The DC will expect sRGB, 709 or P3 - i'd love to learn more about your calibration setup - what you're calibrating for?

cheers
Paul
 
Paul,
The LUT box performs the same function as HDLink. I was using a Matrox MXO2 mini to get the RGB, 10b, progressive signal necessary to activate the color engine in the Dreamcolor, necessary to get to the REC709 LUT built into the Dreamcolor. The MXO2 was problemmatic; plus, I couldn't be sure the calibration was current after a few hours on the monitor. My solution was to go to the BMD mini monitor which is YUV, so the Dreamcolor defaults to the full color space. Putting the LUT box inline and calibrating with Spectracal allows me to build and load a LUT for REC709, Adobe RGB, or whatever color space I choose. Basically a Rube Goldberg way into the full color capabilitiues of the Dreamcolor.
 
cuervo said:
Paul,
The LUT box performs the same function as HDLink. I was using a Matrox MXO2 mini to get the RGB, 10b, progressive signal necessary to activate the color engine in the Dreamcolor, necessary to get to the REC709 LUT built into the Dreamcolor. The MXO2 was problemmatic; plus, I couldn't be sure the calibration was current after a few hours on the monitor. My solution was to go to the BMD mini monitor which is YUV, so the Dreamcolor defaults to the full color space. Putting the LUT box inline and calibrating with Spectracal allows me to build and load a LUT for REC709, Adobe RGB, or whatever color space I choose. Basically a Rube Goldberg way into the full color capabilitiues of the Dreamcolor.
Click to expand...

In my set up the HDLink simply takes the RGB SDI signal from the DeckLink Extreme card (up to 444 RGB) and converts it to display port so i can plug the thing into the DC. This was the most cost effective way i could find to get a RGB signal all the way.

If you're bypassing the DreamEngine and managing your own calibration then is there still a reason to use a DC?

IMHO one of the more important side effects of monitoring via video rather than data is fixed screen refreshes, a computer monitor timing is always a bit ropey, each frame may or many not last 1/25th second (and it varies). This results in motion that doesn't always feel right. Monitoring via video is locked into the timings of the monitor and 100% accurate. It has a different 'feel'

My 'problem' at the moment is i want to use SpeedGrade more and guess what. Blackmagic need to update their drivers and surprisingly enough they're not really interested in supporting SG... So i'm always on the look out for a better way of monitoring.

cheers
Paul
 
One thought, the Fujifilm LUT box is a 3D LUT as opposed to the 1D LUT built into the Dreamcolor.

I bought the Dreamcolor when it firts came on the market. The only other pro monitor available was the FSI, at twice the cost. In retrospect, I wish I had gotten the Eizo monitor, but, it was too late, I already bought the Dreamcolor. There's cheaper solutions on the market, for sure. Guess I just keep pouring good money after bad with that DC.....should have just bitten the bullet and gotten the FSI, I guess.
 
which Eizo you are talking about? Any recommendations for budget monitor?
SpectraCal is offering a CalMan for Resolve calibration too.
Is anybody experienced with that?
 
Eizo CG243W
Eizo ColorEdge CG241W
NEC MultiSync PA271W

I just updated my Spectracal Studio5 to v2.3, which has the Resolve calibration in it...it's still in RC1, so I haven't tried it. Clearly, if your monitor can't reach the colorspace, no amount of LUTS or ICC maps will ever make it do what it can't. So, part of the problem is being sure you have a monitor that can make the color space, ITFP. You'll need a Spectracal C3 probe to run it. And I beleive the calibration procedure is for an external monitor, not the Resolve built in monitors.
 
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thanks - my plan is to run a external Monitor via BM Mini Studio for preview as soon I have the budget again ;-)
 
Paul beat me to it, but there is some misleading in incorrect information in some of these posts by members;

Contrary to popular belief Davinci will not clip anything so it is not necessary to select 0-1023 when in fact you might be working with video that is 64-960 and even has extended ranges to accommodate up to 109% IRE. Internally in Davinci any extended signal information is there, you can bring it down below 100%IRE if you want using the gain control, or you can leave the signal as illegal and the data WILL be retained in the output file. NLE software however is another story.

Also widely misunderstood, any levels you set on the DELIVERY page when rendering video will be over-ridden depending on the actual codec you select. For example all ProRes codecs adhere to 64-960 video levels with the exception of ProRes RGB 444 which uses 0-1023. The majority of video codecs are YCrBr based and will be 64-960. DXP, EXR and true RGB based codecs and are 0-1023. So if your overall project clips are 0-1023 and upon exporting you select DATA LEVELS and then export to ProRes 422 it is being scaled from Davinci to 64-960.

Many people will set their clip attributes to 0-1023 because they somehow think they would otherwise be at risk of losing image data by clipping, or they think 0-1023 will give them more range to work with. Ultimately you should set the range levels for your clips in Davinci to the levels based on the actual footage files themselves. A good rule of thumb is that computer generated graphics, RAW and most linear gamma codecs are RGB 0-1023, and the majority of video based codecs are 64-960. Note this is a generalization since there are some cameras like Alexa and Sony F5/F55 which can record video images in RGB modes.

Resolve does a pretty good job of explaining this stuff in the manual if you simply do a search on "data levels" to jump around to the different chapters. It goes into far more details and explanation.
 
I've run extensive import/export tests with Resolve to Media Composer, using DNxHD. I really can't speak to ProRes as I rarely, if ever, use it. So, speaking from the PC side of things, It's possible to clip super whites and blacks if you're not careful. And yes, this isn't necessarily a Resolve issue as much as it's an issue understanding how Media Composer imports DNxHD from resolve...:0), as well as understanding how Resolve works when you internally limit color range.

So, follow whatever workflow works for you. But, as Paul said...test, test, test with your workflow. Don't blindly listen to pundits in this forum.

If you want to run your own tests, do this...
1-use a REC709 color bars that you know is calibrated properly, or create your own in Photoshop using full range 0-1023. Make sure you save it out of Photoshop in RGB. Now, import this into Resolve using all possible combinations, i.e., auto, Data, or Video. The first thing to do is look at the scopes to verify that you're seeing 0-1023.
2-without changing anything in Resolve, export your various import combinations to all possible export combinations.
3-Doing this with DNxHD and importing the results in Media Composer clearly shows clipping or improper scaling in all cases except the pure "Data" path in Resolve and importing into Avid in the REC709(unscaled) mode.

I will note that I strongly dislike all applications that start rescaling things for me without telling me. I'd rather go thru my workflow from injest to final render, leaving everything unscaled (superwhites and superblacks intact) until I render to my deliverable format. Generally, this means setting things in my final render timeline to 64-960 then rendering out unscaled. Note also that nowhere in my workflow is there an application that clips the superwhites/blacks...that's just unacceptable. BTW, I really, really, really dislike the way QT will scale things for me and never tell me it's doing it or giving me a choice in the matter!!!
 
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