Resfest - Info on new HD cams - Canon = wow!

M

mgalvan

Well-known member
Hey all,

So I just got back from the Panasonic ResFest presentation in NYC and let me give you my insights on what I saw. Everything we currently know about the HVX200 is still the same, but this time, Jan displayed footage (1080i) from the camera on the large projector wall. Let me say that the footage is indeed pretty sharp on the big screen with vibrant colors. It was being projected from a projector using footage from the camera tranferred to DVCPROHD tape. Jan noted that the camera is about 85% complete and that they are well on schedule for a December release. Other notes included a perceived latitude of about 7 stops and a minimum illumination of f8 @ 2000 lux.

Then it got interesting. I went out into the hall and behold, Panasonic and Canon both had tables next too each other, both with working models of the HVX200 and XLH1. I went to the Panasonic booth first and started playing with the HVX. It is indeed quite heavier than the dvx and much more bulky as well (something like 7 - 8 lbs). The camera was only 85% complete and they had footage playing out of it to a monitor. Quite frankly, I wasn't really impressed by it but I do have to note that I believe they just shot some random footage and the camera isn't done. The footage in the presentation though was nice, so I think its safe to assume that the final product shouldn't dissapoint.

But then I went to the Canon table, and let me tell you ... I was IMPRESSED!!! Canon had a complete working final model of the XLH1 that I played around with extensively. I also had a long talk with the Canon rep about certain aspects of the camera. I (and I wasn't the only one) hounded him about how the 30F and 24F modes worked, and they didn't seem to hold back anything at all. Apparently, the CCDs capture the image interlaced and then combine the separate fields before outputting out single discrete frams and 1/24 per second. The Canon rep stated that the fields captured from the CCD are so close together that once it has been processed out as single discreet frames (essentially progressive), the footage becomes undiscernable from actual 24p footage with full 1920 x 1080 resolution. He also noted that the footage will be treated in NLEs exactly as native 24p footage (meaning, dropping 24F footage into a 23.98P timeline is the workflow and you work with the footage as if it was 24pa) Of course the proof is in the pudding, so I switched it over to 24F HD mode and low and behold, THE MOTION RENDERING DID SEEM PRETTY MUCH AS IF IT WAS 24P!!!! Of course, this was just a preliminary observation from the camera EVF/LCD (which is very similar to the XL2's, but 16x9 shaped), and the rep did state that they are going to do a filmout test really soon to test the motion rendering. Other notable features include everything in the XL2 plus more including another cinegamma setting specifically designed for projects going to filmout. The camera handles exactly like the XL2. It really does look like a black XL2 with extra buttons.

I have to give it to Canon. While Panasonic still was seemingly dodging certain questions from the crowd, Canon was answering everything in full force. Plus they had a completely working model after they just announced the camera two days ago while Panasonic is still working with the hyping up. The Canon reps were very knowledgeable (while on the Panasonic side, there was this one rep who kept saying that you could record out fully uncompressed out of the firewire port which is ridiculous - Jan, please PM me if you would like specifics on what this guy was saying). Though the Panasonic is still very impressive, with Canon playing their cards and being out there in full force with such a seemingly polished product, all being put forth in a matter of days, has made my HD decision a very hard one.

I plan to go back tomorrow to get a lot more details from the Canon side regarding the XLH1 since they are not holding back on any info. If you have any questions you'd like answered, please let me know and I'll see what I can do.
 
Is this Canon model capable of variable frames in the 24P mode? What is the HD image recorded to, tapes?

Lastly, when is it's proposed release date?

Thanks!
 
Why would they be showing 1080i ? I thought the big deal about this camera was that it could do 1080P, 24, 30, variable etc.
You did state that it was only 85% complete...could be the reason....
 
SquidLips said:
Is this Canon model capable of variable frames in the 24P mode?
Click to expand...

Ummm, what do you mean by "variable frames"? It records 60i, 30p, 24p, and can be modified for 50i.
 
Yes, apparently 1080i was the only mode that is working out of the camera ... 1080P is part of the camera, just not available yet ...

Regarding framerates, Jan did say that we can pretty much bet on 12, 22, 48, 60 .. a couple more, but I can't remember ... looks like it'll be about 12 different rates in 720p
 
Thanks for that MG....ooooooh this HD race is getting intense. I have 6 grand ready to go on the HVX but am now thinking I might have to scramble for an extra 3 for the canon. I have always like the look (shoulder mount) and lens situation with that camera and the fact that it is HD capable..... hmmmmmmm.

I was looking for variable frame rates as I shoot a lot of action films. They have all (six of them) been shot on film (16mm or 35mm) and I use 22fps (roughly) and 64fps (more or less) for much of the fight sequences. I just shot my first HD feature and though it was on the F900 I was very excited about the possibilities of video and want to try a few sub 50K films on the most "cinematic" of these new line of cameras.

Right now I am in the HVX court ( because of the variable frame rate and the "cine" look pana has nailed down) but will research this Canon a bit more and see if the cash will make sense for what I want to do with it....
 
Very nice if it's actually confirmed that there will be 12, 22, and 48... those were three that I asked for on my wish list!
 
but isn't the canon gonna sell for something like 9 grand?

i'll have to sell alot of cocaine to be able to afford that...
 
Voodoo-

Check out www.resfest.com. They have all the information including the dates and times for each thing. Basically everything costs $10 except for the HVX presentation which is free. For a pass to everything, it's $69.

J.D.
 
mgalvan said:
They had a completely working model after they just announced the camera two days ago while Panasonic is still working with the hyping up.
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While this is true, my guess is that they've been working on the XL H1 just as long as Panasonic has been working on the HVX - they just never said anything about it. And Panasonic has said "4th quarter '05" since way before NAB, so they're still on the original target they set months ago. While Canon will indeed have a short "first leg up" out the door, they should actually be thanking Panny for announcing their camera way back at the beginning of the year. Many people have held off purchasing Z1s and HD100s because they wanted to wait until the HVX was released so they could get the camera that would best suit their needs. Now they have even more choices as a result.
 
Haakon said:
While this is true, my guess is that they've been working on the XL H1 just as long as Panasonic has been working on the HVX - they just never said anything about it. And Panasonic has said "4th quarter '05" since way before NAB, so they're still on the original target they set months ago. While Canon will indeed have a short "first leg up" out the door, they should actually be thanking Panny for announcing their camera way back at the beginning of the year. Many people have held off purchasing Z1s and HD100s because they wanted to wait until the HVX was released so they could get the camera that would best suit their needs. Now they have even more choices as a result.
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Yes, what you say here is quite true ... the Canon rep explained that they have been working on this camera for some time now. He said Canon didn't quite understand how companies like Panasonic announce products and then have really long periods before actually releasing them. He said their approach is usually unveil and then release very soon after ...

Speaking of which, guess what? He did mention that they may ship the camera next month, as in October!!! I guess this is a wait and see thing, but he sounded pretty confident that it would ship in a month. The camera is already finished so there is no real reason why they couldn't ...

What struck me was how confident they were about this product. I think they feel they really have a winner (it certainly impressed me, and I was HVX all the way). Thats why they aren't shy about any of the specs, they feel that they will win the resolution war in terms of pixels on the ccds with theirs being 1440 x 1080. Which brings up an interesting thing to note ... he said they went with 1080i ccds because one of their highest priorities was having the maximum pixel resolution possible. I asked why they couldn't implement 24fps as 24p and he said that they wanted 1080 resolution so 720p was never really an option and true native 1080 progressive scan chips were too expensive. So thats why they created this new method of achieving film motion called 24F.

But I asked him why they couldn't implement it the way Panasonic is implementing it in the HVX by using a 2:3:3:2 pulldown in a 1080i stream and thats when he smiled and said something along the lines of "Do you think panasonic's chips will have the resolving power? The only camera that can do real 1080p is the Sony's (Cinealta). They must be doing some kind of pixel-shifting or something in-camera from relatively lower resolution chips to acheive the resolution and quite frankly, we didn't see that as an option. We wanted the highest quality image possible, hence the ccds that we used but also wanted to keep our filmmakers in mind, hence the 24F modes."

Take it as you will ... they just seemed so confident about their camera, it was almost scary ... but I have to agree that it surely seemed nice and the Canon reps did seem a lot more genuine than the Panasonic reps. When I was at their table, a Panasonic rep immediately came in my face and kept explaining why I should buy P2(to the point were I was shoving him away), whereas the Canon reps were simply "Let us know if you have any questions? The camera is here so you can take a look."

I dunno what to buy now ... Canon has brought some pretty damn nice goods to the table that rival the HVX more than the others. I should also note some things that may put ease to the minds of others.

- They did say that the camera will ship with the 20x HD lens as the only available lens, BUT ... as to little surprise, they are indeed working on the next lens for the camera which will indeed be a wide angle. The rep did note though that the lens will not be cheap ... a good part of the reason the camera is $9,000 is the lens tat comes with it, and they have plans to make the wide angle "really really nice" but also "it ain't gonna be cheap"
- He said they will be doing a film tranfer test really soon to prove their 24F mode ... certainly am looking forward to those results
- They implemented the flip option of the image on the EVF/LCD for the sole reason of those wanting to use devices such as the micro35. They also implemented a new cinnegamma setting specifically for things being transferred to film. He said "we made sure we accomodated our filmmaking community."

One final thing, I told him that as an independent filmmaker, HD-SDI is a really great option, but pretty much unusable because of it's impracticality in the field. I asked him his thoughts on that and he said "Well you know we just announced this camera to the world in the last couple days. But now that its out, people know what we are offering and other companies can do what they can. I mean, Focus Enhancements is aware of what we are offering."

Why he pointed ot Focus Enhancements, I dunno ... maybe foreshadwing of something to come that involves the HD-SDI??? Your guess is as good as mine ...
 
You can upgrade the XLH1 to 60i/50i. No more "I don't have 24f in Pal" issue. What about GOP? I can't find any info about GOP on Canon website.
 
mgalvan said:
One final thing, I told him that as an independent filmmaker, HD-SDI is a really great option, but pretty much unusable because of it's impracticality in the field. I asked him his thoughts on that and he said "Well you know we just announced this camera to the world in the last couple days. But now that its out, people know what we are offering and other companies can do what they can. I mean, Focus Enhancements is aware of what we are offering."

Why he pointed ot Focus Enhancements, I dunno ... maybe foreshadwing of something to come that involves the HD-SDI??? Your guess is as good as mine ...
Click to expand...

That would be nice if you can record 4:4:4 HD direct to disk (without lugging a computer around). Would take up a lot of disk space, but worth it for the extra picture quality. Is Focus exhibiting at ResFest?

Sounds like HVX CCD is probably not 1080 lines. But the proof is in the pudding, and I can't wait to see a comparison of the pictures.

Thanks for keeping us informed.
 
Thats why they aren't shy about any of the specs, they feel that they will win the resolution war in terms of pixels on the ccds with theirs being 1440 x 1080
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I'll expect to see a lattitude "war" then. If Canon is claiming "higher resoliving power" then Panasonic will most definitely claim "higher lattitude"... though I would LMAO if Canon manged the lattitude challenge as well.

-Spiff
 
mgalvan said:
He said Canon didn't quite understand how companies like Panasonic announce products and then have really long periods before actually releasing them. He said their approach is usually unveil and then release very soon after ...
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I'm sure he's going to say anything that puts his company/product in the best light. Really, all the jargon and phrase-twisting that's surrounded these cameras lately just feels like politics to me. There are a lot of posts being made that stretch concepts so far to make the point for their preffered camera that it's making my head spin. The worst thing is that none of these cameras are available yet (save the offerings from Sony), so even though we have "specs," most of people's outlooks are pure speculation. Well, he's right... Panasonic did announce their camera eons ago. They also said it would take eons to make. And hey, Canon's camera, although it's being released quite shortly after they've announced it, is still coming out at just about the same time as the HVX. So really, the release situation for both cameras is near identical... one company just happened to open their mouths (much) sooner. None of it will matter when the footage is released.

mgalvan said:
What struck me was how confident they were about this product. I think they feel they really have a winner (it certainly impressed me, and I was HVX all the way).
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It's interesting how people perceive different things, isn't it? I'm sure some people scurried over to get the JVC just because it "looked cool." And of course, by realistic standards, that's the last reason you should really be purchasing a camera. I'm sure Canon feels they have a winner (would they bother working on a camera that they thought was a loser?) :-P but obviously their enthusiasm was enough to rub off on you and get you thinking as well. The funny thing is, these little things do make a difference... some salesperson can rub someone the right or wrong way and change their mind based on their experiences and perceptions. Did I mention this whole thing feels like politics? Lol...


mgalvan said:
Thats why they aren't shy about any of the specs, they feel that they will win the resolution war in terms of pixels on the ccds with theirs being 1440 x 1080.
Click to expand...
It's easy to not be shy when the brute numbers are in your favor. It's sounding more and more like the HVX is going to have smaller native CCDs overall just based on the comments Jan has made and the fact that they haven't released any information yet. Note that this isn't necessarily a bad thing - more pixels on the same size chip means smaller pixels, which can translate into less latitude, more noise, and greater seceptibility to a myriad of other problems. Raw resolution is just one part of the giant puzzle. (Though it is funny how some of the same people who were saying we didn't need the HVX because HD isn't here yet and no one can view it, blah blah, are now saying the Canon is superior because its chips are likely bigger and have greater resolution.) *rolls eyes*

The proof will be in the pudding. At the end of the day, it's pretty awesome that any of these new generation of cameras are going to be able to capture spectacular images that we were never able to before at anywhere near this price point. Still... as someone on the "other" forum put it, "24F... what the F?" Haha...
 
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