Res Fest-LA Comparison of HVX, Canon, JVC, and Sony!

emulsionla

New member
Hello,

Before I start, please note that I am a novice when it comes to cameras. I am an internet geek, that's trying to bridge the video revolution and the internet. I may be missing some key features, or have some facts wrong, and that is the reason for this post. I'm looking to make the best informed decision, because I'm getting serious about buying a camera, and I'm turning to the pros on this website for help. Please help me make this decision, by making sure I have my facts straight.

The Res Fest had guest cinematographer David Leitner (NY) come out and speak about the pros and cons of these 5 cameras...

Sony Z1 - Sony A1 - Panasonic HVX 200 - Canon XL1H - JVC GYHD100U

The Sony Z1 is a quality camera, which shoots 1080i, or 720p...Good camera, with 3 1/3 ccd chips, good lens, output is firewire only, and has a problem artifacting, but overall a good camera...Also, the lens isn't interchangeable.

The Sony A1 is the same as the Z1, but it only shoots 1080i. It has a single cmos chip, with image enhancing technology, and also has a feature (so does the Z1) where you can set 2 points on the camera zoom, and tell the camera to zoom in an x amount of seconds from one lens focal length to the other. Same problems with artifacting as the Z1.

The JVC is one camera that appears legit, but there are two problems with it. First the pros...It can record 720p, 720i for live streaming, and has a radical front heavy shoulder mounted design, with the lcd in the handle, much like the canon xl1h. The cons for it are...The lens for it is the Fujinon, which the speaker said looks like crap, but it's capable of interchangeable lenses, and there's a couple extra HD lenses that are being developed for it. The other problem with it is the fact that it's "the cowboy" of the HD world, in that they're running down their own path, and don't have the compatibility as some of the other cameras, but i'm willing to take it with a grain of salt, because if you're going to build a system, you're going to buy the camera first...

The Canon, though pricey ($9000), have some features that the other cameras don't. First off, the interchangeable lens that they feature, is a 20x HD lens, and they're producing more of a variety of lenses, so Canon is hands down the best of these 5 cameras in the comparison in the lens department. Second, it has an HD-SDI component to output 1.48 gb of data. Third, it's design is more aesthetically pleasing, and they also have the handle mounted lcd screen, which though is nice, it's too small for my tastes. It goes to tape, but the Canon people said that there are harddrives coming out for it that will allow you to record into them. Anyways, the HD-SDI output is the key feature here, because though it's not today, in the next year or so, you will see decks, editing software, and other products come out to accomodate such a large amount of data. This is true HD quality output. The only camera with this feature.

Panasonic HVX200...Nice camera. Here's the pluses, as you know, P2 technology keeps all your footage in solid state. It films in 1080i, and 720p, (along with the miniDV like the rest of the cameras listed here) have to shoot in 720p first, and then you can push this data to 1080p. When asked directly if the footage looks better if pushed to 1080p, Jan said that it's up to the individual to answer that question...she may have sidestepped the question, but like I said, I'm a novice and may have misheard. I got a feeling that it won't be legit if it is capable of 1080p, cause you first have to shoot to 720p. The camera also makes zero noise when in P2 mode. It's lens is not interchangeable, but the speaker at the seminar said it looked good. It also shoots in 12 framerates, so it is capable of some of the varicam style in camera slow mo, and fast mo...It also captures every frame, meaning that there are no keyframes like the HDV cameras, and takes away all dropouts.

As for my assessment, Sony Z1, Sony A1, and JVC are all on the backburner. The real stars were the Canon and Panasonic. The Canon is capable of more things in the future, mostly because of the HD-SDI out. This future is going to be revealed over the next year. If you have time to wait for the technology to catch up with this camera, this is the one to wait for. The Panasonic is going to be the present in it's december reveal...The P2 technology, and zero noise level are highly sought after features. This is the camera in which, if you're like me, need pretty much right away...It's going to have it's glitches, but overall, Panasonic blew away the competition, except for the Canon, which I think in the long run (2 years from now) is going to be the better camera for small HD feature length pictures.

I think this pretty much capsulates everything, please feel free to add to this.

Sorry for the long post, if you sat through the entire thing. :shocked:
 
Thanks for the report... but there are a quite a few errors within it. Notably the Z1 does not shoot 720p. And the Canon is a 1080i camera (with an F mode).

What exactly is meant by the HVX has "zero noise in P2 mode"??? Noise is a function of other aspects of the camera, such as the CCDs... As far as I'm aware P2 will not have the ability to make noise disappear.

As far as Jan's answer is concerned, I'm not sure she sidestepped the question at all. A lot of people do prefer the interlaced look. Sony's sold a heck of a lot of interlaced cameras in direct competition with the progressive capable DVX/XL-2. It's a matter of taste and application.

Hey, I do like your prediction though: "The future is going to be revealed over the next year".

That's what I'm hoping for. Although I'm still having a tough job trying to unravel my sordid past.
 
I've modified the posting...please read the top disclaimer...As for lacuna's question about zero noise, i think it's simple...No tape means no tapedrive making noise. This is how it was described to me outside, after the seminar.
 
emulsionla said:
As for lacuna's question about zero noise, i think it's simple...No tape means no tapedrive making noise. This is how it was described to me outside, after the seminar.

LOL... I thought you were talking about video noise... silly me. Yes the quiet audio will be super nice. I can now consider mounting a mic on camera.
 
lacuna said:
What exactly is meant by the HVX has "zero noise in P2 mode"??? Noise is a function of other aspects of the camera, such as the CCDs... As far as I'm aware P2 will not have the ability to make noise disappear.

The "zero noise" claim has to do with the fact that when running in P2 mode, the HVX is the only camera from this group that doesn't mechanically impart noise into its attached microphone (or any nearby microphone for that matter) since it won't have a miniDV tape drive running. It was not intended to be a comment on the video noise performance, just the lack of the tape mechanism's noise.
 
Also the HVX does record a native 1080P format. How their getting there is less important if the images hold up. And from what I saw today they definately do.
 
emulsionla said:When asked directly if the footage looks better if pushed to 1080p, Jan (she thinks she's a celeb)

Unbelieveable!, it is obvious that you don't know me. I do not think this, I would rather be anonymous and have no one know my real name. But because I choose to post under my real name this makes me think I am a celeb? Ha! I don't get it! So what is your real name? Maybe you too can become a celeb. ;-)

>said that it's up to the individual to answer that question...she definetily sidestepped the question.

No I said exactly as I felt! I happen to think that 720P is gorgeous, I think the Varicam looks fantastic. It is the beauty of this camera, you can go where you want to go. 1080P might also be gorgeous, but I have not seen it yet.

> I got a feeling that it won't be legit if it is capable of 1080p, cause you first have to shoot to 720p. The camera makes zero noise when in P2 mode.

So why won't it be legit if it is capable of 24P? And why do you first have tpo shoot 720P? The camera has no moving parts, so how does that change in 1080i? It runs as quietly in 1080i/24P as it does in 720P.

Jan
 
Jan,
I think your so called celebrity status was bestowed upon you by us DVX shooters who have been consistently surprised and amazed at the level of personal attention you give to us shooter. This is by no means a small honor, and you should be aware of how many of the professional and amature filmmakers here who appreciate you. Emulsionia is a bit new (4 Posts) so I'll cut him a little slack on his ignorance. I was also there today and think your answers were much more informed and articulate than the Canon reps who only knew basic info about thier own product. Your diva status has been highly overstated.
Thanks for all the hard work. Most of us know the quality of the HVX is in no small part because of your attentiveness to our concerns.
 
emulsionla said:
Anyways, the HD-SDI output is the key feature here, because though it's not today, in the next year or so, you will see decks, editing software, and other products come out to accomodate such a large amount of data.
I heard the Canon guy saying this . . . that the HD-SDI output was "ahead of its time" and is ready for "other things in the future to connect it to." This is utter marketing bullshit. The HD-SDI output is useless to anyone without a $50K HD deck or a multi-camera HD studio.
 
Jan's interest in her primary market is appreciated but I don't anyone who considers her a celebrity.
... Maybe a Queen, but that's different! Lol.

As for your initial comments, well, I share your enthusiasm. But, there are a number of errors in there and what stands out to me is the notion that a camera needs to have "native" pixel density to be considered "real" HD. Lots of internet lore about pixel density that just isn't true. Know this, sometimes having fewer pixels than the "native" resolution is actually better. Panasonic will likely use a spatial pixel offset which increases sensitivity, reduces noise or "grain" in the images, makes for better dynamic range and is just better overall. They've been doing it since the eighties and no-one has ever complained. They use it on the $66K VariCam. They're able to use chips very efficiently this way while maintaining the full 1080 resolution. If you want to point fingers, point them at Canon. Their camera does, in fact, using an up-res technique to get 24F.

Bottom line: Ya may be barking up the wrong tree about "upressing" because it is not an issue with Panasonic and two, please don't slander Jan because she is very helpful -- and she reads the forum! D'oh!
 
Jan, i sent you a personal message...

NBC, the Canon guy was telling me outside that some company is making a deck that's gonna be cheap and to look 4 it in August of '06.

For me, it's down to either the Panasonic or the Canon, and this is the one thing that I'm afraid of...The fact that with Canon, I may have to spend alot more money to get up and started.

With the Panasonic, I'm looking at:

6,000 - for Camera,
600 - for 4gb card ( I think I only need one of these, and Jan (thanx for the info :) said that it's going to be down to 600 dollars by the time the camera debuts.
2,000 - for legit stix and fluid head tripod
2,000 to 3,000 - Nice laptop to import files
1,000 - Camera Accessories (Case, xtra batteries, etc.)

The Canon, is still mysterious to me.
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
No I said exactly as I felt!
And that, she does! Jan is a credit to her profession, a credit to Panasonic, and an incredible asset to us end users. She talks the straight talk and gives technically sound answers. And NEVER does she shovel the usual marketing bullshit about her wares. She is the most technically well versed pro video marketing person I've ever known (who's not an engineer--or are you?). She knows more about her product and her market than you can shake a stick at. Jan is a class act all the way.
 
emulsionla said:
NBC, the Canon guy was telling me outside that some company is making a deck that's gonna be cheap and to look 4 it in August of '06.
That's a pretty bold claim! You should call him on that one. Who's making it? What datarate will it record? What price point? Is this going to be yet another NEW non-standard HD format? I still think it's bullshit--very creative and specific bullshit, but bullshit nonetheless.
 
I grilled him on this, NBC you were standing right next to me. He was very optimistic that someone would make a 24F compatible deck in a year or so but the only firm (as tofu) anwer he gave was that FCP 5.x would support it in December. It's no doubt the best HDV cam out there, but seriously, 9k for a camera with an undeliverable format? At least DVC-ProHD can be laid off to an HDD and handed to any post house with FCP or Express Pro HD.
 
emulsionla said:
wells, what's the deal with sony? i heard that artifacting is a major problem for them. Is this true?
To be quite honest, the last time I handled a Z1 was at NAB. I do have some FX1 skateboarding footage provided by Apple and looking at it frame by frame I can tell it has major artifacting problems. It is accurate to say that the kind of 1080i that Sony uses in their HDV cameras is prone to falling apart during quick camera movements. It's as sharp as a whip the other times, well, sharper anyways. Hope this helps.
 
evinsky said:
Also the HVX does record a native 1080P format.
Uhh, no it doesn't. Actually, nothing records 1080P right now. The camera records 1080i at a 24-frames progressive. Don't ask me to explain, 'cause I don't quite understand this myself!
 
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