RED venting

A

arrestthisman

Well-known member
Ok guys. I don't want to trash anyone here. I want to make that clear, I simply need to vent. I know it's been covered before (the DVinfo forums are talking about this a lot), but...

Well, I just came from the REDuser forums, which I frequent often... They really have become a cult. It's so odd. Many of them are incredibly intelligent, nice people. But they seem to have absolutely no clue that a camera, no matter how innovative, is never perfect.

Most of them really seem to think that there are no alternatives that even come close to the RED. They treat Jim Jannard like a deity. (Now what he's done for cinema, he should be acknowledged for... so...)

It's to the point of ridiculousness though. Many of these guys will refuse to acknowledge any flaws with the ONE TRUE camera at all.

I've been on DVXuser since 2003. No one is perfect, but as products are rolled out we are excited here, but we don't treat it like a religion. I'm not saying that we're better, but this is a NORMAL culture for a forum dedicated to users of products based on science.

The RED fanboys will do ANYTHING in their minds to convince themselves that their camera is better than the next. Look we all want to have the coolest toys, but I own an hmc150 (used to own a dvx then an hvx). I love it. I love it a lot, but I know it's not Perfect. And I'm not doing "mental gymnastics" (anyone see fishsticks episode of South Park?) to rationalize some way that it could be better than an f900.

I'm also not looking down my nose at someone who owns an HV20 (or 40).

I'm just sick of the smugness. And I'm sick of the total and utter denial that single chip designs, and CMOS chips don't have serious flaws.

Yes they may get better, and it's a rapidly evolving technology (I don't know if CCDs are moving along at the same pace), but as of now, every camera you buy is a tradeoff. You trade one strength for another, and accept a flaw as a result. So you buy or rent the best camera for you. Some cameras have far less flaws than others, and they probably cost more. Period.

This is not to say we should abandon talk of technology. On the contrary. I LOVE talking about the toys, the tech. I love learning about the science, and comparing the cameras. It's just that it's not supposed to be an emotional process. Ok, sometimes it is, but I think anyone who's read up to here knows what I'm talking about.

If it's about learning or even just having fun, I'm all for it. If it's about deluding one's self for the sake of ego, I'm not. It's no different than comparing genitals, except for the silicon.

So why am I complaining when I can just stop going to reduser? Because I feel like it :) I'll also be staying away from the cultish World of REDcraft, as well.
 
It has always annoyed me how every post Jim makes in the recon forum has pages and pages of 'Awesomes' and 'wow thats amazing, thanks Jim'

Even when they announce their s35 sensor is late, they blab on about how amazing it is and try and justify it and somehow say that its ok that its late.

Good camera though, but yes, not perfect.

Personally, I believe that Scarlet and Epic are quite a long way off...
 
While I agree with you that the level of enthusiasm is a bit overwhelming sometimes, you do always have the option of not going there if you don't like the place :).
 
OMG JIM JANNARD

Alright, I have been known to say that with a certain level of sarcasm, but yes I do agree, and I fully accept all flaws in the camera. But what I can't stand are the people that talk about flaws that are easily fixable, some people just want to demean the camera, and so people have to talk back, thus giving a sense of "this camera is perfect" or them explaining how to fix the problem
 
I know what you mean. I've seen lots of great RED footage but some pretty garbage footage too. RED is nice and all it's features are wonderful but if you can't light...it'll suck just as bad as the HV20. I'll take HV20 lit well over RED sharpness and flat footage.

It's a great tool no doubt, but it's the film they're making and the great cinematography that they capture with it that counts in my book.

I'm pretty sick of hearing "O only if I had the RED, then my film would be good." They're in for a rude awakening, lol.
 
As a REDuser myself, I must admit I'm not sure where you're coming from. I read reduser everyday and only rarely do you get an emotional argument over the qualifications of the camera. easily 99% of the talk is about workflow, techniques, glass, etc. I don't follow where the "cult" part comes in.

That said, maybe it's because I'm in the cult myself, I dunno, but I don't see people being smug or rude, just filmmakers and technicians learning from each other.

Maybe it's because I stay out of the Scarlet and Epic forums, maybe I'm missing all the offensive talk. My attitude is until it's out, it's of little interest to me. However, of all the camera out there currently, the RED ONE best suits my needs. Another camera may suit your needs better, but for me... it's "perfect" ;)
 
I think this could be a general statement that could be said about just about anything that requires any sort of investment, has few competitors, and is marketed as something hip or special. It's not just certain Red users that suffer from it.

Xbox vs Playstation. Mac computers... oh Heavenly Father, don't get me started about Mac fanboys... and let's not even talk about the Linux crowd. Panny cameras... yes Panny cameras. There I said it. I love the Panny Mojo, but I get so iritated by folks trashing Sony's as pieces of junk because of the CMOS chips (having played with the EX1, I actually kinda like it). The flip side is all the Sony and Canon fanboys knocking the HVX/HPX/HMC cameras for having pixel shift chips. It just all sounds so stupid.

People get so wrapped up in their little idol and buy into the "superiority" of it that they don't want to be told that there is something out there that is just as good or works just as well, if a bit differently. They don't want to hear their idol's faults or the advantages of the other comparable idol. So, they retreat to their little echos chambers and tell each other how much better their idol... and by extension themselves... are.

Kyle is exactly right .They're all just tools that are to be used as a means to an end. I'll take my HMC150, my perfectly running Vista x64 that was built for half the price of a comparable Mac, and my Xbox360. They work for me and what I need, and I prefer them over the others. If you prefer a Mac, a Sony or Red, or a Playstation... great. Good for you. If it works for what you need, go for it. Just put a sock in it when you try and tell me how much superior your stuff is. If you feel the need to get into a pissing match over your superiority over me, than I suggest seeing a good shrink to help you with your inferiority complex. :D
 
Cheesesailor77,

You definitely don't seem like you're in the cult; and it pleases me to see a sane REDuser sticking to the work.

I think you're probably just not hanging out in the general forums. My guess is that you stick to the technical or workflow forums. Or perhaps if you visit the general forums, you only post, or reply to relevant threads.

But it's pretty obvious if you go through all of the forums (and I think you're right that most of the insanity is in the Scarlet and Epic forums) there exists the phenomenon I'm bringing up.

I think Mike is absolutely right that this goes on everywhere, but it seems less intense and less insane on the panny/sony/canon side. The most tempered group I think would be the Ikonoskop crowd. They're very pragmatic, and I have yet to see a post where they demean a camera just to make the dII look better.

Mac versus PC seems to be getting a little better. Maybe it's because of the intel switch, or maybe because Apple's quality is suffering*, I don't know. But I've been in the platform/OS/console wars, and as bad as they get, they don't seem to be as delusional at the RED wars. They're just as arrogant, but they don't spew massive misinformation nearly as much. That's just my opinion.

There was a post on REDuser a while back that kind of epitomizes the problem. Barry was explaining about the bayer filter, and the likely spot of 2.8 to 3.2k as the effective resolution. Of course he made sure to point out that was luma, and not color. That RED cannot output 4:4:4. The next post was some guy said something to the effect of, "yeah it's probably around 8:8:8, because if the Sony [blah blah blah] records 4:4:4 with its BEST system [snide remark about sony] then the RED must be at least double."

Barry then had to explain that he was talking about the product of demosiacing to RGB, and that the chroma sampling numbers for 3-chip cameras don't have meaning with Bayer. Then of course a post from someone about how that's because bayer is so much better. And then CMOS is "by nature... better than CCD."

Back and fourth, back and fourth. And I've never seen Barry and other Gurus so disrespected when pointing out facts. He certainly wouldn't get that treatment from DVinfo, or here. It's plain silly. If these fanboys are pros, then G-d help the next generation of filmmakers.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm not alone in this observation. And again, this is just to vent. I don't want to knock anyone, and I'm sure all of those guys are well meaning. But in anything larger than a small dose, it just makes you want to scream. It's like Tennis, they say to get better you must play against people who'll beat you. I like to be surrounded by voices on the forums that know more than I do; when I hear absolute BS and fanboy insanity, it saddens me and hurts us all in terms of learning.

The effect now, is that when RED rolls out something I really do have an interest in, I don't feel I can trust the user base for good, accurate information. Come to think of it, in the long run, it's hurts RED.

To William: I agree, that's why I said the exact same thing at the end of my post. :)
 
arrestthisman said:
Many of these guys will refuse to acknowledge any flaws with the ONE TRUE camera at all.
Click to expand...

Three CCD's for all filmmakers under the sky,

Severely better low light for the HD-DSLR Lords and their walls of stone,

Nine lives for no-budget directors doomed to try and try,

A Red One for the RED Lord Jannard on his billion dollar throne

In the Land of RED where the Scarlet is a big fat lie.

A Red One to rule them all, a Red One to find them,

A Red One to bring them all and in the darkness bind them

In the Land of RED where the release date is the day I die.

Please bear in mind that the above is me, in what Monty Python might refer to as, being very silly.
 
It got REALLY bad when people over there couldn't handle that the 5D can makes images that are comparable to most RED footage.

They had a bird.
 
arrestthisman said:
...The next post was some guy said something to the effect of, "yeah it's probably around 8:8:8, because if the Sony [blah blah blah] records 4:4:4 with its BEST system [snide remark about sony] then the RED must be at least double."
Click to expand...

hmm I definitely haven't stumbled across bits like that. Like I said, I'm VERY active in that community, so I guess I've just been lucky. It's true that I avoid the Scarlet and Epic forums just out of disinterest. Anyway, I hope you feel better and will remember that for every ignorant asshole over there, there are at least 100 calm, friendly, insightful, REALISTIC folks (mostly professionals) that just want to share information.

Hope to see you over there again soon :)

P.S. While I'd still prefer to shoot most things on a RED ONE over a 5D, there's no doubt that it's amazing. My only issues with it are it's compression, more manual controls (which i assume are coming), more framerates, and a little less jello. If those were addressed, I'd seriously consider abandoning my RED rig. :)
 
arrestthisman said:
...The next post was some guy said something to the effect of, "yeah it's probably around 8:8:8, because if the Sony [blah blah blah] records 4:4:4 with its BEST system [snide remark about sony] then the RED must be at least double."...
Click to expand...

That's almost pee my pants funny... if only because in order to get a fully functioning Red setup... you have to invest, what, $30k-$40k? Anyone who forks out that much money for gear and makes an as cluelessly ignorant statement about that gear as him is a bona-fide moron who shouldn't be allowed to have that kind of money to spend. :D
 
2 points about that quote: I have no doubt that whoever said that was trying to be funny. Is it still obnoxtious and aggressive, probably, but I don't think it comes from a place of so desperately misunderstanding the technology.

Also, I don't like the 4:4:4 comparison, because 4:4:4 is a video term, and RED doesn't shoot video. So while it's accurate to say that it's not 4:4:4, it's also not 4:2:2 or 4:1:1, and anyone who's worked with the footage in a grading suite won't argue that bayer pattern sensor sacrifices nothing in term of color rendition. And for instance if you transfered your RED footage to HDcam SR tape, you can then indeed have 4:4:4 video. It's all semantics. Film isn't 4:4:4 either ;)
 
Cheesesailor77,

With all due respect, the post was quite obviously NOT in jest when it was read in context. And, it was followed by many statements by other members that were just as ignorant. I totally agree that for every jackass there's more good people out there. I don't know about 100 for 1... lol, but let's agree that the good ones are there, and plenty of them.

I think this is a phase, and those idiots will eventually be vetted out. Although, I wouldn't doubt if civil war breaks out when Scarlet and Epic begin to ship.

One point I must disagree is that bayer sacrifices Nothing in color rendition. It's simple math, common sense, and basic video engineering. Bayer absolutely sacrifices color. Film is scanned for Red Green and Blue (and the original celluloid has each dye). The best system to render color (not luma/sharpness) that we have now is a sensor for each primary color, combined in a DSP to form an image. No doubt better tech will come. But for now....

That is not to say that bayer is amazing given what it is. The picture you can get when only 25percent of red and blue is present is truely amazing when run through the algorithms that have been developed for demosaicing. BUT, it is a tradeoff. Bayer is a system developed to "get away" with one sensor and still have color. One sensor allows for the best lenses used in cinema. So it is a tradeoff.

No doubt though, when you do the math, 4k downsized to 2k in a video color space Would have 4:4:4, with plenty of luma to spare (unfortunately lost in the downsizing, which is why projecting the native 4k footage looks best).

But honestly, it doesn't matter. What matters is how it looks. All the math in the world can't make a crappy shot (for whatever reason) look good. EX1 has some awesome footage at 4:2:0, and I've seen it compared to downsampled RED, and it looks mighty close to my eye. (Properly exposed of course.) But that's my eye, ultimately it comes down to what look you want. And we CAN toast RED for giving us proper and usable (uncompressed is just unwieldy) RAW, which gives so many options for "the look." On the other hand, RED footage does kind of have a look to its own regardless of color correction, olpf, etc. all the options given. It still has its own unique look just like every other camera out there.

Sticking to my point, though, is that this is my opinion, and nothing more. The problem with the fanboys is that they purport opinion as fact.

Ultimately the camera that makes you happy is the best camera in the world, and it's different for everyone.
 
I've been over RED after four shoots and six months on that forum. I learn more here. Never been to scarlet and epic user didn't dare.

The 5D emergence really made me chuckle. It is true, they did have a bird.

This is my personal experience on RED, I ranted at www.tarekkandil.blogspot.com its called REDrant if anyone wants a read.

I see DP's every week here now buying REDs and really s**ting on everyone else in town man i've had it. And I'm new.

I don't like RED. It's too good, it hypnotizes people, and distracts.

And yes I agree that definitely over 80% of REDuser cannot handle criticism. It's like children I really get annoyed when I read that forum, haven't been on there in ages, and I'm much much calmer over here. I love this place.

On the Ikonoskop note, the dII is really the dream cam for my needs. There's a forum? someone please hook me up with a link. I'm searchin now.

T
 
arrestthisman said:
The problem with the fanboys is that they purport opinion as fact.

Ultimately the camera that makes you happy is the best camera in the world, and it's different for everyone.
Click to expand...

I second the first statement, and fourth the second (wait, did that make sense...?) :beer:
 
I see this thread as a mirror image of what is ranted about.

A group of people rallying about a common point of view looking down their nose at some other group.

That's exactly what happened in this thread complete with the requisite derrogatory reference, "the fanboys", and all of the self-congratulatory back slapping common to stirring up the feelings which lead to all the hatred and crap in the world.

Us/Them

Same old tune, different band.


"Madness, Madness!" - The Doctor, Bridge on the River Kwai.
 
Let's remember that RedUser is a sister site of DVXUser, owned and operated by Jarred Land, so... we love those folks over there.

Secondly, yes the redusers can seem more fervent than most other users. While that can be irritating to those "not of the fold", I'm always of the opinion of hey, if they're happy, they're happy, and let's not go threadcrap on them.

but as of now, every camera you buy is a tradeoff. You trade one strength for another, and accept a flaw as a result. So you buy or rent the best camera for you. Some cameras have far less flaws than others, and they probably cost more. Period.
Click to expand...
This is the truth. This is the absolute truth, and it always will be. Even as the bar of entry comes down (so an HPX3000 outperforms an F900, even though it costs less) that doesn't change the fundamental truthfulness that "if you want more, it costs more." It's just that the F900, at this point, is an outdated product that is overpriced (as is the original VariCam, since you can get an HPX3000 for $29,995 right now).

There is always a tradeoff, and it's up to you to determine what you find an acceptable tradeoff. For some, a 4K sensor and 1080p imagery and interchangeable lenses is all they need, want, and crave -- and for them, a GH1 might be "perfect". For others, it may be a case of what they want is a certain brand and the sense of security that comes from that brand, whether the product is the most capable or not (Apple, Sony, Red, Mercedes, there are several brands that people will cling to regardless of what compromises they need to make). For others, the idea of 4K recording is the pinnacle, and they'll pay whatever it takes to get there (either the price tag, or the post processing time, or whatever).

There is always a tradeoff. The thing is, for some folks, what they're asked to give up is no big deal (Red users don't seem all that concerned about being able to deliver live TV footage, and GH1 users don't seem all that concerned about not having variable frame rates, and HPX170 users don't seem all that concerned about not having super-razor-pin-sharp footage). So if you find a product that meets all your needs, and you don't mind its compromises, then that's when you're happy.

The American Society of Cinematographers and the Producer's Guild of America just did a comparison test of top-end 4:4:4 recording systems, including the Red One, the HPX3000, the Viper, the F35, etc., and even included an Arri 435 to have good old celluloid represented. They assigned an ASC cinematographer to each camera, as well as having some overall cinematographers for lighting each scene, so the scene was best lit, followed by each camera being tweaked by an ASC member to deliver the best results within that scene. We'll see what they have to say about CMOS, film, and CCD, about single-sensors vs. 3-sensors, about highly-oversampled RGB Stripe versus demosaic'd Bayer, about the effective end-user color resolution and luminance resolution, etc.

And when all is said and done, even if the Red doesn't come out on top (and the initial quote I saw in HD Video Pro seems to indicate that it won't), many many people will still be very comfortable in pointing out that a functional Red system can be bought for around $25,000 to $30,000, and you really can't buy any of the others for anywhere near that price.

In the end, it should be okay for Red users to be rabid about their product, as long as it does what they need and costs what they can afford. Just as it should be okay for Sony users to be rabid about theirs, and Panasonic users to be rabid about theirs, and Canon users to be rabid about theirs.

What crosses the line is when someone from one camp decides to come over and crap on the happy party of another camp. If an EX3 user went into the RedUser forum and decided to tell all the red users how stupid they were, how superior Sony is, blah blah blah, well, that EX3 user would get run out of town on a rail faster than he could blink, and rightly so. Just as if a Red user came over here and tried to tell a GH1 user how stupid he was, how he's "just using a toy", etc. We don't play that game here.

So -- opinions, etc., are all fine as long as they're kept respectful. Even if you think someone is brainwashed into a cult and can't see the facts around them. As long as they're happy there, is it our right to rain on their parade?
Hopefully we can all allow others to enjoy or relish whatever they want, in freedom, and we do require that they extend us the same courtesy.
 
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