Red Scarlet Announcement Info

Kinda crude aren't we? Did I ever say I'm a better photographer than Peter Lik? I said I shoot architecture for a LIVING! I said I know an HDR image when I see one. And that panorama is fused (fusing and HDR are two separate approaches to increasing dynamic range) . Jim at red is going to tell us that the epic has a 16-20 stop range in a single capture without any post process (fusing or HDR)? The examples I posted were for 2 reasons. 1:They were shot in Vegas. 2: they were single shot captures processed 3 times with push and pull and normal, then blended into a "fused" image. Not to compare his vrs mine, but to show the process that I see in the posted panorama. Here's two "single capture" images I've done the same way. 3124353368_6e985c9b5a_b.jpg3124353202_b34929645a_b.jpg Now without telling you that these are fused, I could easily state that these images were single capture 18-20 stop dynamic range images from a 5dmk2, could I? I'm not comparing photographs or photographers here. I'm saying that I have a hard time believing that the posted Peter image is a single processed image without "Fusing" a push and a pull. An 18 stop DR image? Really? Tell Jim to upload the raw captures (just one of the frames from the stitch) to prove it, then I'll believe it. Now the Peter Panorama is not your typical HDR image with the haloing, for sure. Notice how Jim states he won't mention Peter's workflow? If he want's to prove that the Epic has this much dynamic range "WITHOUT USING RED'S HDRx", then upload just one of the frames from the stitch so we can have a go at it ourselves (the one with the parking lot on the left or something so that it's not so interesting that people try and use it for themselves).
As far as my claim that I could do better. If I were standing in that spot with Jim and Peter while doing this with my 5dmk2 and PC lenses I could have done the same or maybe better with a camera that costs how much less than the Epic? No Still 16bit still digital camera has 18 stops in a single capture without post processing tricks or I would own it.
Now do you know how much POST goes into a Peter Lik image? He's very secretive about his process. But I can tell you from working in Labs and having a still studio of my own, that his work is not single capture to direct print. He's a fine artist, just like Ansel Adams was. Do you think that an Ansel negative printed straight to paper without HOURS of darkroom work? So then think of this. Why would you invite a guy like Peter Lik to show off how much dynamic range a camera has? Obviously star power. But the guy is a process master. Think about that.
 
Oh and by the way Fruitypurple, I see no reference to any of your work. 4086017141_4a5d540672_b.jpg Same process of single capture fused from normal, push, and pull. Before ya knock it, that's my Dad in that box. Heres a link of shots I did for Casers Places Highroller suits. All fused and I used maybe four 200 watt halogens instead of my truck full of lighting to shoot, because I wanted to capture the lighting architects feel, and not interpret with my tens of thousands of watts of lighting in the truck. http://www.lasvegassun.com/photos/galleries/2010/apr/29/french-and-spanish-villas-caesars/54637/ or http://www.flickr.com/photos/globalgamingbusiness/sets/72157624159110049/with/4704547784/ or http://lioninoil.net/blog/2010/01/14/imperial-heights/#more-916 There is NO CAMERA on the market that I could have gone in and shot and USED a "SINGLE" exposure and held the dynamic range of these rooms. If there were, I would own it.
 
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My take on it is, here's a great cinema camera and it can also take good stills. He's just proud of his product and team, and in this ONE scenario, it performed better than the MF camera due to the required exposure times on the MF. Only if you read more into it do you assume that he's saying it's better than anything else in any situation, period. And I didn't read that.

(Fan of RED's, but not a fanboi.)

-cp
 
dustylense said:
Jim at red is going to tell us that the epic has a 16-20 stop range in a single capture without any post process
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for the record they are not claiming 18-20 stops, they're claiming 13.5 without hdr, they also state that they have a fraction less DR than the Alexa
 
It's funny how some people just "take Jim's words" as truth with no scrutiny. The Epic image posted is clearly not just 13.5 stops of dynamic range, which is what the Epic is rated for. It is said in the post that it isn't shot with the HDRx which then would be around 17 stops. So, clearly it is a post processed shot, now the techniques can be debated, like "is it HDR" (making it 32 bit) or "gradient masks" keeping it at non-float point. I think it kind of BS of Jim to say "This shot did NOT use HDRx. It wasn't necessary." because in the end it is probably more HDR-ish than the actual HDRx. It is like using a camera with a 10 DR, and taking 5 pictures to get something like like 20 dynamic rage, and than saying the camera is better than those with 12 DR. The sort of smoke and mirrors argument from Jim is lame. They have a great product, and it beats lots of other cameras on many things, there is no need to be assholes about like this: "BTW... we shot several lenses, including Canon. The 50mm RPP was by far and away the best. That was the lens used in this shot." Cool, I will just take Jim's word that his lenses are better than his competitors...
 
Most rational people recognize that there is a lot of hot air/gas wafting over the RED landscape lately. It appears that most of the people posting over at REDuser are the equivalent of digital ditto-heads, RED leader or his confederates aggressively "monitor" content and any critical commenting is suppressed and carries the threat of being attached to the "S##t-List". The increasingly shrill pitch of the rhetoric/spin suggest to me that there are some real threats to RED at significantly lower POPP (personal ownership price points) than ever before. I would watch for a RED "killer" from one (or all ) of the big 3 Japanese companies in the next 18 months.
 
High1ander said:
It's funny how some people just "take Jim's words" as truth with no scrutiny. The Epic image posted is clearly not just 13.5 stops of dynamic range, which is what the Epic is rated for. It is said in the post that it isn't shot with the HDRx which then would be around 17 stops. So, clearly it is a post processed shot, now the techniques can be debated, like "is it HDR" (making it 32 bit) or "gradient masks" keeping it at non-float point. I think it kind of BS of Jim to say "This shot did NOT use HDRx. It wasn't necessary." because in the end it is probably more HDR-ish than the actual HDRx. It is like using a camera with a 10 DR, and taking 5 pictures to get something like like 20 dynamic rage, and than saying the camera is better than those with 12 DR. The sort of smoke and mirrors argument from Jim is lame. They have a great product, and it beats lots of other cameras on many things, there is no need to be assholes about like this: "BTW... we shot several lenses, including Canon. The 50mm RPP was by far and away the best. That was the lens used in this shot." Cool, I will just take Jim's word that his lenses are better than his competitors...
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That is the illusion of of Jim's post on the image. Trying to say that it's a single capture consisted of stitched images of non HDRx and not using HDR techniques. He's also saying that the Epic out performs as a stills camera a 80 megapixel phase one back. I'm sorry, but through a stills guy in a "STUDIO" with both cameras and the Phase One will be were the top pro goes. I often work with this guy http://www.sebreephoto.com/SEBREE/Home.html. He calls me all the time on gear advice as he really isn't a gear head. There is no way I could convince him to rent an Epic for a stills campaign. For one, he uses strobe. Most times he uses a 5dmk2. But for when HBO shows up, he rents Phase One.
It's fine if Jim found that the Epic beat a Phase One back for "that shot". But in the real life of commercial stills photography, 9/10 pros will go with a digital back like the phase one. Now some art directors might come in and request Red Epic for stills because it's a fad (Like Showtime did when we shot the Dexter Promos. I ran green screen video and they requested 5dMK2, but I used my AF100). But I'm sure that Sebree would talk them out of it. I've also worked with this guy while coming up http://www.tomburkhartphoto.com/ The thing is, when you have a $750,000 campaign you are going to go with the tool that is right for variable situations.
Red Epic is amazing, no doubt. If I could justify it, I would buy it. But as a stills shoot camera. No F'ing way!
 
High1ander said:
It's funny how some people just "take Jim's words" as truth with no scrutiny. The Epic image posted is clearly not just 13.5 stops of dynamic range, which is what the Epic is rated for. It is said in the post that it isn't shot with the HDRx which then would be around 17 stops. So, clearly it is a post processed shot, now the techniques can be debated, like "is it HDR" (making it 32 bit) or "gradient masks" keeping it at non-float point. I think it kind of BS of Jim to say "This shot did NOT use HDRx. It wasn't necessary." because in the end it is probably more HDR-ish than the actual HDRx. It is like using a camera with a 10 DR, and taking 5 pictures to get something like like 20 dynamic rage, and than saying the camera is better than those with 12 DR. The sort of smoke and mirrors argument from Jim is lame. They have a great product, and it beats lots of other cameras on many things, there is no need to be assholes about like this: "BTW... we shot several lenses, including Canon. The 50mm RPP was by far and away the best. That was the lens used in this shot." Cool, I will just take Jim's word that his lenses are better than his competitors...
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I think you're kind of missing the mark here. The whole point of Jim's post was that he had the endorsement of a regarded professional, not that we were supposed to "take his words" for what his camera can do. And why would you think that more than 13.5 stops of DR was needed to capture that image with the sun low in the sky? Just because the Epic was spearheded by a megalomaniac multimillionaire doesn't mean that every display of its abilities is part of an intricate web of lies.

That said, I think he chose his endorsement poorly - the buildings in the final image look like they were taken from a screen cap of The Sims.
 
dustylense said:
... What if your RED goes down on a large budget project in South Asia? If Canon made a cinema camera, wouldn't you think that in terms of resource they are better off than RED to handle these situations. ...
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In all honesty, I think Red would send replacement cameras. And you'd be able to post messages in a public forum for the engineers and CEO of Red to respond to. I have not a clue what Canon would do.
 
It's good point though. They "might" send a repacement if you are working on Spiderman 5... but what about a high budget indie? What if your media or batteries get stolen?

RED slate Canon etc... but at least you are not often trapped into priority gear that HAS to come form L.A or London.
 
Nowhere in his post do I read stuff like "Peter said" or similar, I take it as Jim is saying Epic is better than Phase One, Red lenses are better than Canon lenses.

Without saying their workflow or stating that it is "one exposure", I will assume that it is several shots. Sure, there are "fake HDR" images you can get from a single exposure and tweaking the raw image to in the end make it like 3 different exposures, which they might have done. Maybe they actually did get that from "only" 13.5 DR, then it is quite nice I must say, because usually when I've seen that type of processing the shadows and highlights tends to be shitty, compared to proper HDR.
 
Ok. One more insulting post and I close this. Show respect at all times. You are free to state opinion. But personal statements will not be tolerated - against ANYONE.
 
You can read negativity in any post, project any mentality onto what a person is saying, but most often than not it reflects on you and how you would do things and has very little to do with the person you are attacking, most of the time it's your own insecurity or immaturity that causes it in the first place... or maybe that's just me!

On the RPP comments he is later asked about other cine lenses for instance Leicas and Jim replies that they cost the same for a single lens as a whole set of rpp's do. So it was more a comment of lenses in the same price range or just what they brought out with them, and less of a statement that they beat any lens in the world.

"HDR (and HDRx) are dependent on two or more combined exposures. This was NOT the case here. The shot was graded, just like you would grade motion, from single exposure stitched EPIC frames.

Peter owns the shots and is not likely to every give up any of his original files... any more than Peter Jackson would let us post original R3Ds from The Hobbit.

Peter is the one who said "EPIC wins."

"The problem with the Phase shots was resolution in the corners and blooming of the lights. Plus, the Phase sensor is noisy at higher ISOs so he had to shoot ISO 100 and long exposures... which gives the classic long streaking cars look which didn't fit this shot.

I'm not suggesting anything other than this is what it is. Another use for EPIC as a DSMC.

Jim"

In that scenario epic won was what he was saying, and it wasn't him it was Peter who made that conclusion.

It's just marketing either way so a little embellishment would make sense though I doubt there is much, obviously take it for what it is but ease up on the personal attacks and assumptions...

Or start your own controversial company and run an open web forum that becomes on of the largest in the industry and have over seven thousand posts of your own addressing your customers and try not to have a single slip up amongst all of that, especially difficult considering the amount of FUD thrown around and baseless personal attacks. But believe what you will, and do what you will it's an open internet after all no need to be civil... some people...

Peace, and try to play nice!
 
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Joe Walker said:
I wanted so badly to ask on REDuser if the Scarlet will have playback available come shipping day as well as all the pro modules they've talked about come November 4th. But I'm scared to ask ANY questions that could be in ANYway interpreted as negative over there for fear that I'll be banned, shaved, sterilized, and destroyed. Here's to hoping
thumbsup.gif
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You make it sound like a concentration camp.
 
S. Matthews said:
You can read negativity in any post, project any mentality onto what a person is saying, but most often than not it reflects on you and how you would do things and has very little to do with the person you are attacking, most of the time it's your own insecurity or immaturity that causes it in the first place... or maybe that's just me!

On the RPP comments he is later asked about other cine lenses for instance Leicas and Jim replies that they cost the same for a single lens as a whole set of rpp's do. So it was more a comment of lenses in the same price range or just what they brought out with them, and less of a statement that they beat any lens in the world.

"HDR (and HDRx) are dependent on two or more combined exposures. This was NOT the case here. The shot was graded, just like you would grade motion, from single exposure stitched EPIC frames.

Peter owns the shots and is not likely to every give up any of his original files... any more than Peter Jackson would let us post original R3Ds from The Hobbit.

Peter is the one who said "EPIC wins."

"The problem with the Phase shots was resolution in the corners and blooming of the lights. Plus, the Phase sensor is noisy at higher ISOs so he had to shoot ISO 100 and long exposures... which gives the classic long streaking cars look which didn't fit this shot.

I'm not suggesting anything other than this is what it is. Another use for EPIC as a DSMC.

Jim"

In that scenario epic won was what he was saying, and it wasn't him it was Peter who made that conclusion.

It's just marketing either way so a little embellishment would make sense though I doubt there is much, obviously take it for what it is but ease up on the personal attacks and assumptions...

Or start your own controversial company and run an open web forum that becomes on of the largest in the industry and have over seven thousand posts of your own addressing your customers and try not to have a single slip up amongst all of that, especially difficult considering the amount of FUD thrown around and baseless personal attacks. But believe what you will, and do what you will it's an open internet after all no need to be civil... some people...

Peace, and try to play nice!
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If it is personal attacks in your book to argue that others use crappy arguments and tactless comments, then OK, that isn't my definition of personal attacks. I think it is bad to make "broad statements or inflammatory statements" like, OUR CAMERA IS THE BEST, and then 16 pages later in the thread go "Actually, it is just better in this condition" and basically just comparing apples and oranges. Its like saying a Humvee is a faster car than a Ferrari only based on driving in tough terrain. The whole thing is this, the Epic and Red One are so damn good as they are, I don't think there is a need to behave poorly to the other manufactures. This sort of behavior is something I would expect from a company with a lesser product.

But you are right it is very uncivil of us to question people's methods. It must be my youth which causes my immaturity and insecurity to come out, and question the prophet. In the future, I shall try to be less critical of what leaders say on the Internet.
 
High1ander said:
But you are right it is very uncivil of us to question people's methods. It must be my youth which causes my immaturity and insecurity to come out, and question the prophet. In the future, I shall try to be less critical of what leaders say on the Internet.
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As I said, I guess it's just me. You have full right to question any person you want to... I just find it unusual how people act on the internet(myself included).

have fun!.... sorry for adding my interpretation and opinion of said events, and for the unnecessary preaching
 
Back to biz. It'll be interesting on Nov 4 and after for a few weeks till the user reviews come in, standby for more crazy time.

To keep the hype going if RED have really done their thing properly, then they should have follow up 'news and info' to keep the ball rolling.

IMO many potential buyers will wait a bit.

Cheers.
 
I would be very careful buying anything from RED...They are slowly turning into a cult and Jannard is praised as a prophet....
 
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