Mitch Gross
Veteran
BTW, all the D20s were turned into D21s. The D20 was considered an experimental camera while ARRI was figuring out the concept, which is why they were rental only. I think there were only about 80 of them.
RED Ranger For Sale / No Longer Just A Rental Item
- Thread starter Run&Gun
- Start date
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Totally, i thinkni recall them tepidly refering to them as production ready, haha. They looked good, afaik. Downton Abby or something similar had a season on one? But limited dynamic eange and sensitivity. It is pretty amazing the evolution to the AlevIII.
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Brilliant.
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Someone mention Shakespeare and a skull once. I am not personally offended by the skull, it is the association with killing and violence that weaponry often has.
Next time i hear you talk cameras i’ll remember: “i don’t care how good it is.”
All cameras need to get better. We are in the age when the best is still off looking, but we already moved past the opd analogue formats.
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Both are amazing!
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Pretty true.
I do think the larger sensors give a different grain and the difference between higher resolutions and 2K can also lend a different aesthetic.
Also, the form factors are drastically different compared to what Red has done. DSMC1 and 2 are pretty much the same design, and the difference between a dsmc 2 and a ranger is not as big as the difference between a alexa classic and sxt at the end of the day. An Alexa M is worlds apart from an Alexa Studio. ...but branding, design choices, and naming conventions make it all appear more similar than it is.
But, if people are confused by Red branding, that is normal, but the perception of having more sensors and body types is rather misleading.
Arri has three different sensors, and 4 different sensor sizes, on several different bodies with different built in capabilities and a licensing scheme for special features. ...and yet...
I know people that have rented an Alexa 16:9 with some anamorphic lenses, and the rental house didn’t warn them. I’ve had a client ask me to shoot high frame dates on a Scarlet, and was confused by the whole thing because the last time they used a Red they could.
There is no getting around that Red has annoying branding and less than ideal history. I consider myself an Arri fan, but i dislike Red haterz because they are just bizarro Red fanboiz.
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Don’t be an arse.
You’re that friend that always says “i hate drama”, but always low key stiring things up.
NorBro
Major Contributor
This is an Oakley t-shirt (one of dozens) to show that the founder - Jim Jannard - likes skull designs, which later transferred to his RED hardware.
It's not drama and I never will understand you.
And don't private message me later explaining yourself.
That's true... but given how rare a full-sized Alexa is in independent film, most indies probably only think that there's one Alexa (the Mini).
Regardless of the differences though, one of the things that keeps Alexas popular with high end cinematographers is their consistency; no matter what other feature variations you choose, the dynamic range and color rendition are always identical.
I've never found it to be all that confusing, so I was always amused when people asked me whether I had a Scarlet or a Dragon. Nowadays when I get that question, my answer can be pretty snarky if it's coming from a dolt
Well, they're really all the same sensor in various sizes, but since there are so many people out there who don't even know the difference between a DP and a camera operator, well...
D'oh!
I've run into that sort of thing also.
The reality is that people recognize that Sony and Panasonic have dozens of current camera models, yet they can't get their heads around the fact that Red has four, not including the rental-only Ranger Monstro, and now just two more. And the only differentiating factor between the DSCM2 cameras and between the Ranger cameras is the sensor, it's actually very simple, there are just a lot of choices when you add in older models to the list.
The impression I get is that most Red haterz are that way because they're jealous more than anything else, as evidenced by how many people complain about not having 8K resolutions, etc etc.
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That's true... but given how rare a full-sized Alexa is in independent film, most indies probably only think that there's one Alexa (the Mini).
Regardless of the differences though, one of the things that keeps Alexas popular with high end cinematographers is their consistency; no matter what other feature variations you choose, the dynamic range and color rendition are always identical.
I've never found it to be all that confusing, so I was always amused when people asked me whether I had a Scarlet or a Dragon. Nowadays when I get that question, my answer can be pretty snarky if it's coming from a dolt
Well, they're really all the same sensor in various sizes, but since there are so many people out there who don't even know the difference between a DP and a camera operator, well...
D'oh!
I've run into that sort of thing also.
The reality is that people recognize that Sony and Panasonic have dozens of current camera models, yet they can't get their heads around the fact that Red has four, not including the rental-only Ranger Monstro, and now just two more. And the only differentiating factor between the DSCM2 cameras and between the Ranger cameras is the sensor, it's actually very simple, there are just a lot of choices when you add in older models to the list.
The impression I get is that most Red haterz are that way because they're jealous more than anything else, as evidenced by how many people complain about not having 8K resolutions, etc etc.
Well said.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Nailed it! I want to like RED cameras more than I do. I know they are great tools, it's just all of the other distracting stuff that makes me not want to even rent them. The marketing, image, skulls, confusing constant
re-naming, model/sensor realignment, plus they can be finicky as hell to just get working. In my half a dozen experiences shooting with them (1.5 hour to black shade at advanced resolution and higher frame rates!)
and out of half a dozen times, had to exchange brains twice at the rental house for the camera doing weird things that it wasn't supposed to (malfunctions).
I know they are a good tool and capable of greatness but they are an example of the user experience overriding the end result for me. Total respect for those who
use them, make money with them and make good art with them. I hope they stick around and thrive, we need viable alternatives to CanPanSonyArri.
They're just too "Bro" for me to use I guess?
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Tamerlin,
I am supposing that people who shoot with one camera and different stocks of film are fine, but anyone else is confused by all the jargon.
Video cameras imply naming convention = same. But anyone who is used to film or building their own pc probably has a head start on others. Apple and Arri have done a good job of simplifying something that could be... well, everyone else.
Branding and naming conventions aside, i think it is difficult to get around the fact that Alexas have a lot of what motion capture needs vs the competition. But everyone is making a compromising in one area or another, size, dr, resolution, price, and on and on. Most of the cameras are good enough to get pretty pictures, but that has been true since day one, but we have never had a camer that has had enough dynamic range and enough resolution AND good enough colour to properly capture the complexity of the way we see things. We are pretty close. But still just shy. Feels like we are in the uncanny valley of image iq, rn. Fortunately for DP’s, that means we still get work just to expose correctly.
I am supposing that people who shoot with one camera and different stocks of film are fine, but anyone else is confused by all the jargon.
Video cameras imply naming convention = same. But anyone who is used to film or building their own pc probably has a head start on others. Apple and Arri have done a good job of simplifying something that could be... well, everyone else.
Branding and naming conventions aside, i think it is difficult to get around the fact that Alexas have a lot of what motion capture needs vs the competition. But everyone is making a compromising in one area or another, size, dr, resolution, price, and on and on. Most of the cameras are good enough to get pretty pictures, but that has been true since day one, but we have never had a camer that has had enough dynamic range and enough resolution AND good enough colour to properly capture the complexity of the way we see things. We are pretty close. But still just shy. Feels like we are in the uncanny valley of image iq, rn. Fortunately for DP’s, that means we still get work just to expose correctly.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Someone mention Shakespeare and a skull once. I am not personally offended by the skull, it is the association with killing and violence that weaponry often has.
Next time i hear you talk cameras i’ll remember: “i don’t care how good it is.”
All cameras need to get better. We are in the age when the best is still off looking, but we already moved past the opd analogue formats.
It's not the skull itself, it's the sort of Ed Hardy/Frat Boy image that it presents when you sometimes have clients around it, realistically its a cartoon/logo
and I have had a couple of clients sort of laugh at it and the names of the sensors (Dragon, Monstro, really?) I'm all for breaking out of the Japanese number and letter
boredom with camera gear but I think with the level of product and the audience of people using and around them, they could come up with better names/imagery.
RED, the name is cool, but it's like they stopped there and then just went into monster truck/Red Bull territory.
Compare to the competition, Alexa, Amira are positively poetic and classy in comparison.
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I find Arri verges on sexism in the other way. Like people naming boats with female names.
Alpha numeric is good, but lacks personality.
I’d like a Red Butch, or something. Name a camera Chris or Wang Li.
Canikony and the alpha numeric now represents videoy and crippled features, and Red and Arri struggle appealing to a time gone past.
The Japanese generally copy the Germans and their Bf-109, FW-190, Ju-88, 911, CE 350, A7 (the Audi car, not the Sony camera). ARRI's sort of bucking the historical German trend with model naming. Their previous iterations, as noted, were D20/D21. Of course, among the German brands, Porsche moved on with Macan, Taycan, Panamera, Cayman, Boxster, Cayenne while the US brands like Cadillac and Ford have began to use the alphanumerical such as as F-150, XT-5, CT-6, etc. Lincoln is reversing that trend somewhat with the Aviator and the Navigator.
As to the skull, I am a heavy metal fan and even used to have several skull rings and chains in my younger days. Considering that Hollywood, to quote Martin Mull, is "highschool with money", a small degree of corporate nonconformity is to be expected.
As to the skull, I am a heavy metal fan and even used to have several skull rings and chains in my younger days. Considering that Hollywood, to quote Martin Mull, is "highschool with money", a small degree of corporate nonconformity is to be expected.
They're already selling a boatload, at least relative to the price.
Of course, a boatload of Rangers is probably still fewer than Black Magic's big Ursa sales
I think it's cognitive dissonance. In other words, not thinking.
Red isn't a camera any more than Sony is, or Canon, yet 17 models of Canon dSLRs doesn't confuse people, and three models of Red camera does.
Yeah... we're getting there, but I don't think the problem is that cameras aren't good enough, but rather that they're actually too good for most. Just ask Peter Jackson about the first attempt to films in 4K.
For entry level filmmakers the limitation isn't the gear by far, it's everything else; i.e. lighting (and knowing what to do with it), framing, art direction, etc.
For the high end, the focus is on making things look less realistic in favor of style and mood, because outside of genres where authenticity is important like documentary, filmmaking is fiction and the priority is the story.