RED Mini-Mags Exposed, or just Business As Usual?

[jonpais]

I seem to be sensing collective amnesia here: abandoned promises, features and cameras that never materialized, vehement denials of defects like fixed pattern noise, neglecting to update models, product delays, failure to deliver on an upgradable sensor, poor after sales support, unreliability, and an unhinged CEO attacking the press and calling forum members loudmouths - are we even talking about the same BMD? Compromises have to be made somewhere when expecting cheap products.

 

[NorBro]

I think one issue with RED was they seemed to take advantage of people who didn't know better. Like, they promised cameras at a certain price point and kind of suckered people into investing who maybe didn't realize how much they'd have to put in to make the products fully functional.

Obviously, buyer beware. But it's a similar issue to canon with the R5 in that they hyped its performance but ultimately didn't deliver (at first). Nobody would have been mad at them if only their marketing hadn't been deceptive

Contrast that with BMD, who doesn't even hype their releases before they drop them, and who has always needed very few additional accessories to function, which were always available from 3rd parties. They even started the crazy external usb ssd recording option for people who really wanted to avoid buying expensive media

Then, of course, there's what they've done with Resolve. Look at that price point and expanding feature set. I'm not a Resolve user, but I am an appreciator

You could say the same thing about people buying $100 Oakleys at that time (90s-2000s), lol. Those sunglasses paid for RED's existence.

I do agree that RED botched a lot in their early days, but they can be forgiven because they were a pretty young company. After the initial years, no one was "suckered" and you knew you had to pay to play, and those who didn't calculate the costs or did the research, that's on them.

In general, most companies operate in similar ways, in disguised fashions. It's very difficult to be completely honest when everyone else isn't. Nice guys will finish last 9/10 times in this context because of everyone else exaggerating or lying. That is just the way the world works.

And BM offered what they offered at those costs because they had no other choice. No one would have purchased a BM camera for the same numbers that Canon and Sony had at the same time.

But coincidentally [ironically?], BM had a major impact on everyone else's business, especially [and IMO mostly] RED's cameras. But with that said, if it wasn't BM, someone else would have pushed it along or the Japanese would have continued to lower prices naturally as they have.

 

[NorBro]

Your math is a wee bit off: first of all, you neglect to mention the tens of thousands of dollars just for media and batteries required for the Alexa 35. And everything else required to make the camera production ready. But in real life, few will ever actually own one of the several thousand Alexa 35s produced - they’re going to rental houses.

As for the V-Raptor, which excels in just about every category when compared to the Monstro - it costs less than half the Monstro, and accessories - batteries to last 6 hours of recording time, 1TB media, a monitor and PL mount adaptor - run around eight grand. Lenses, follow focus, tripod, gimbal, rails, transmitter, cage, etc. are the cost of doing business in the world of production with any camera.

Math isn't off because I never even mentioned which model. It was a generalization.

You also have to consider the user. I have the old Alexa and have no batteries and only an AC power adapter I had to pay $300 for to use so there is no "tens of thousands", lol.

But I understand the exaggeration to make a point because that's what you do and I'm used to it.

 

[jonpais]

I exaggerate to make a point because that's what I do and I'm used to it.

There, I corrected it for you.

In all fairness, you should've used the very same conditions for the RED in your comparison, but your argument was weak, so you had to resort to deception. My numbers are based on actual cameras and accessories.

 

[ahalpert]

I seem to be sensing collective amnesia here: abandoned promises, features and cameras that never materialized, vehement denials of defects like fixed pattern noise, neglecting to update models, product delays, failure to deliver on an upgradable sensor, poor after sales support, unreliability, and an unhinged CEO attacking the press and calling forum members loudmouths - are we even talking about the same BMD? Compromises have to be made somewhere when expecting cheap products.

which were the features and cameras that never materialized? or the product delays?

I have no idea about grant petty's interactions with the press. fanboys in both groups are assholes though

I've heard that BMD has poor quality control, though that may have improved.

each brand serves a specific customer segment well

seriously, though - why do you have such an axe to grind against BMD?

 

[NorBro]

There, I corrected it for you.

In all fairness, you should've used the very same conditions for the RED in your comparison, but your argument was weak, so you had to resort to deception. My numbers are based on actual cameras and accessories.

The argument was in favor of RED, you fool. lol

Your numbers aren't based on anything because you don't know anything. You sit in your little hut over there and do cameras tests by yourself. And the second you get a new camera, you're 100% dedicated to that company and look to pick fights on forums.

Every single thread or post of yours is challenging or belittling someone else. You're eventually going to run out of forums to post on because you keep getting banned everywhere else.

And if the mods come across this comment and see you messing with the quoting system above, you'll be immediately out of this one because that's forbidden.

You are an extremely unlikable person.

 

[jonpais]

which were the features and cameras that never materialized? or the product delays?

I have no idea about grant petty's interactions with the press. fanboys in both groups are *******s though

I've heard that BMD has poor quality control, though that may have improved.

each brand serves a specific customer segment well

seriously, though - why do you have such an axe to grind against BMD?

The comments section of the video makes for some fascinating reading...

"Ive owned and extensively used Pocket OG, Pocket 4K and Mini 4.6K Pro. Loved them all but always felt terrified on important shoots. And each had some wonky color issues. Went over to the FS7 and eventually FX series and never looked back."

"I was an engineer on a competing camera introduced at NAB that year. Everyone was talking about this camera while we were getting better quality out of essentially the same sensor design. Ours had global shutter from day one, were properly calibrated, had less FPN and it didn’t weigh a metric ton. BM talks a good game but others let the gear do the talking. Unfortunately their noise swamped our signal."

"The biggest problem with BMD is lack of any kind of after warranty service. Where basically if anything goes wrong after one year you are done for new purchase. Yes they do make relatively cheap hardware that usually works as advertised. But all their products have gotchas that can screw you over in professional environment."

"I owned a Blackmagic Micro with pretty bad fixed pattern noise. I sent BMD a sample image with clear FPN and they said there was no noise. It really pissed me off."

"Both our URSA Mini Pro 4.6K OG has that stupid fixed noise pattern."

Many of the commenters have owned several BMD cameras and for the most part, it appears that they really liked the image quality. So I'm giving a 100% for believability when it comes to their complaints.

 

[jonpais]

The argument was in favor of RED, you fool. lol

Your numbers aren't based on anything because you don't know anything. You sit in your little hut over there and do cameras tests by yourself. And the second you get a new camera, you're 100% dedicated to that company and look to pick fights on forums.

Every single thread or post of yours is challenging or belittling someone else. You're eventually going to run out of forums to post on because you keep getting banned everywhere else.

And if the mods come across this comment and see you messing with the quoting system above, you'll be immediately out of this one because that's forbidden.

You are an extremely unlikable person.

sticks and stones, buddy.

 

[ahalpert]

The comments section of the video makes for some fascinating reading...

"Ive owned and extensively used Pocket OG, Pocket 4K and Mini 4.6K Pro. Loved them all but always felt terrified on important shoots. And each had some wonky color issues. Went over to the FS7 and eventually FX series and never looked back."

"I was an engineer on a competing camera introduced at NAB that year. Everyone was talking about this camera while we were getting better quality out of essentially the same sensor design. Ours had global shutter from day one, were properly calibrated, had less FPN and it didn’t weigh a metric ton. BM talks a good game but others let the gear do the talking. Unfortunately their noise swamped our signal."

"The biggest problem with BMD is lack of any kind of after warranty service. Where basically if anything goes wrong after one year you are done for new purchase. Yes they do make relatively cheap hardware that usually works as advertised. But all their products have gotchas that can screw you over in professional environment."

"I owned a Blackmagic Micro with pretty bad fixed pattern noise. I sent BMD a sample image with clear FPN and they said there was no noise. It really pissed me off."

"Both our URSA Mini Pro 4.6K OG has that stupid fixed noise pattern."

Many of the commenters have owned several BMD cameras and for the most part, it appears that they really liked the image quality. So I'm giving a 100% for believability when it comes to their complaints.

these are the kinds of issues I've seen flagged that have made me hesitant to buy their cameras. but when I've raised these issues on dvxuser, many (if not all) of the people who actually own and use the cameras and had nothing but positive things to report

 

[ahalpert]

My experience with RED was they said they would release the Scarlet -- 4K for $4k. It ended up costing much more. Fine. But they also claimed that you would later be able to upgrade its sensor to the Dragon sensor for some amount of money in some amount of time. It ended up taking a lot longer and costing a lot more to do the upgrade than they promised.

 

[jonpais]

My experience with RED was they said they would release the Scarlet -- 4K for $4k. It ended up costing much more. Fine. But they also claimed that you would later be able to upgrade its sensor to the Dragon sensor for some amount of money in some amount of time. It ended up taking a lot longer and costing a lot more to do the upgrade than they promised.

That’s the reason I’ve never purchased a camera based on promises of future fw updates.

 

[JAMedia]

This is all old news, not sure why it’s being bumped. I guess envy? Boredom?D.

I suggest you get some one to read it for you and explain it to you. This is a CURRENT as in September 2022 and Nikon have a very good case.
(I have seen the technical evidence that was to be use in one of the previousl cases.)

Of course all that Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Panasonic, Canon and BMD have to do is just ignore the Red Patent and that causes a biger problem and not just for Red.

 

[JAMedia]

We should tax the bejesus out of billionaires like Grant Petty. That’s not just me speaking - that’s the opinion of the overwhelming majority of Americans,

This might come as a suprise to you but in 191 out of the 192 coultries of the world no one cares what "overwhelming majority of Americans" think. Especially when it comes to their views on people not in America. You are straying into politics. It is not eve the politics of film makeing and cameras.

Though to be fair whilst this is about the technicalities of cameras it is also about politics to some extent and the US patent Office. IT is certainly notr about taxation and profit of peopel and copmpanies.

 

[jonpais]

This might come as a suprise to you but in 191 out of the 192 coultries of the world no one cares what "overwhelming majority of Americans" think. Especially when it comes to their views on people not in America. You are straying into politics. It is not eve the politics of film makeing and cameras.

Though to be fair whilst this is about the technicalities of cameras it is also about politics to some extent and the US patent Office. IT is certainly notr about taxation and profit of peopel and copmpanies.

You’re dead wrong. The USA is the world’s dominant superpower and its cultural influence extends across the globe, from film to music to video games, sports and television shows, American English, fast food, and global brands like Apple, Coca Cola, Facebook, Google, and IBM. You’d have to be living under a rock not to acknowledge as much. You’d also have to have just emerged from a cave not to know that economic anger is fueling protests worldwide. In countries around the world, people are rising up against the tyranny of corporate interests and income inequality, from Chile, Indonesia, Haiti and Lebanon, to Columbia, Europe and Iran. You are also sorely mistaken about IT: in one study of 400 global companies from 1998 to 2003, investment in IT had a greater impact on a company’s profits than comparable spending on either advertising or R&D - but not sure what on earth that has to do with the topic at hand. If you’re talking about IP, it sure as hell has to do with the profits of 'peopel and copmpanies' [sic]. Or maybe you were just randomly capitalizing the word 'it' for no reason at all (your writing is hopelessly incoherent). Still not sure why you bumped this stale thread, which is past its sell-by date. AFAIK, Nikon doesn’t intend to use Mini-mags on its Z lineup, though I could be proven wrong, since they had the temerity to infringe on RED’s compressed RAW patent!

 

[jonpais]

I suggest you get some one to read it for you and explain it to you. This is a CURRENT as in September 2022 and Nikon have a very good case.

The last time someone posted a comment on this ancient thread was you, way back in 2020 dude. Nikon didn't have a case back then, as they hadn't even released the Z9 yet.

The RED/Nikon thread was started in May 2022.

https://www.dvxuser.com/forum/announ...-against-nikon

If compressed RAW is so simple to do, wonder why Nikon didn't just cook up their own.

 

[Tom Roper]

You’d also have to have just emerged from a cave not to know that economic anger is fueling protests worldwide.

It's authoritarian tyranny, comrade. You should know.

 

[Imamacuser]

You’re distorting facts to fit into a grotesque, Boschian version of reality. RED cameras are priced exactly as promised, delivered in a timely manner given the circumstances and no one is being suckered into anything. Weird how you keep using words like suckered, hyped and hosed, which scream BMD bias syndrome.

Well it's a good thing that RED didn't announce a 3K camera for $3K, oh wait, they did.

 

[JAMedia]

You’re dead wrong. The USA is the world’s dominant superpower and its cultural influence extends across the globe, from film to music to video games, sports and television shows, American English, fast food, and global brands like Apple, Coca Cola, Facebook, Google, and IBM. You’d have to be living under a rock not to acknowledge as much.

You sound just like the Russian trolls ranting about the Russian military successes in Ukraine. They, like you, are wrong. Though there is a trend for all your posts I have seen. Deluded seems the best description.

 

[jonpais]

You sound just like the Russian trolls ranting about the Russian military successes in Ukraine. They, like you, are wrong. Though there is a trend for all your posts I have seen. Deluded seems the best description.

Everything in the sentence you quoted is 100% accurate and verifiable. But your effort to deflect, "look, there's a squirrel!" isn't fooling anyone. Not only are Americans in favor of a wealth tax, paid family leave and a living wage but people around the world are rising up in protest against income inequality and corporate interests controlling their governments and eroding democracy. And in Australia, an overwheming majority favor repealing the stage 3 tax cuts that would amount to a handout to the rich.

 

[ahalpert]

Everything in the sentence you quoted is 100% accurate and verifiable. But your effort to deflect, "look, there's a squirrel!" isn't fooling anyone. Not only are Americans in favor of a wealth tax, paid family leave and a living wage but people around the world are rising up in protest against income inequality and corporate interests controlling their governments and eroding democracy. And in Australia, an overwheming majority favor repealing the stage 3 tax cuts that would amount to a handout to the rich.

Your faith in Americans may be misplaced...

But to be sure, over in the UK the Truss tax cuts for the rich proposal has resulted in a collapse of public support for her government