RED Komodo to start limited shipping soon for $6k

[Guest]

Those pre-adopters as you call them are just part of the marketing strategy. It's about creating a buzz. Which clearly works.

One of my camera dealers sells Red and was salivating at the prospect of Komodo being released into the wild. No doubt it will be a hit with shooters of various types. I still don't expect a single call asking me to shoot with one.

And I won't be getting any calls for a C500mkii. What is the point? You work in a field were you have the best possible tool: the Canon C series cameras.

Komodo seems like an unnecessary expense for you and your clients, unless you need global shutter in a small form factor, for some reason. But Canon has such good RS numbers, I don't see you running into many issues. Would be awesome if the C3003 allowed for turning of the dual gain, and getting that 7ms RS time.

However, not only will I be getting requests for Komodo, I will also be getting bigger jobs if I have a two camera setup like the Komodo/Ranger duo. That is huge for me. Plus it offsets the hefty up front price of the Ranger kit, but doesn't just give me an affordable Bcam, but a completely complimentary tool to the Ranger. Does completely different tasks but has a similar look to the image that should intercut well. So, now a Ranger plus Komodo package is only a few grand more than a C5002+C3003+EVF package.

I wish I was on that early list, as I would be getting a lot of attention and free advertising for myself, just by having one. Marketing strategy or no. It works in the pre-adopters favour as well

And for documentary work, the Komodo will be lower profile than the Sony FSX and Canon C series cameras, and that will be fantastic for the Verite' style docs.

But make no mistake, the Canon C5002 and C3003 are amazing cameras, and represent the best things Canon Video has ever made. I think the latest Cine EOS cameras are finally able to be more iconic than the chainsaws of a prior decade. In a way, I also think that Canon kind of out-did the DSMC1/2 concept. And for the first time, Canon C is competing with top cine cameras in brute force image quality. Not going to knock canon C any more, they have arrived.

But also, not going to knock a tiny global shutter camera with 13+ stops DR, raw, ProRes, and DNX recording formats, just because of a bright paint job. Though, fortunately, the traditional black is $1K less.

Branding, all of the manufacturers are a bit annoying with branding. Some people dislike how uppity Arri is. Canon has the cripple hammer and ridiculous 15+stops DR claims. What we can appreciate is diversity. Red branding appeals a bit to the toxic masculinity man-child spectrum, and so, they may be the most easily unlikeable brands internationally. But, like Lamborghini, they make good machines despite their bad-boi image. Might have been super unreliable at first, but now can be quite usable and fun on the track. And they are great for music videos. Oh, and now with the Komodo, those car commercials can film without leaning lines in the background.

 

[Guest]

I think Andree makes one of the most articulate cases against opting for the Komodo based on use case, rather than brand prejudice. Rambling or not, it is well said.

I do think the Komodo is a good offering from RED and I understand the excitement. But I'm too tied into photography, so it's not for me. I can't really see the Komodo in that list of 3 cameras.

In the Komodo category of camera, the Pocket 6K offers me all I want at this time. In this category I'd wait for a Pocket FF—preferably still at 6K and some AF updates.

I've been using the P6K as my main personal camera for the last few months, not bringing my 1Dx mkII. I'm not a fan of quick reviews. You need to use gear to understand it. Had I reviewed the P6K after a weekend or two, I would have complained about button layout and whatnot, because the muscle memory just wasn't there.* After early struggles just after I got the P6K (at launch), related to there not being a loupe that I liked, I think it's a great video camera now that I've got the BM5 from Kinotehnik.

I've been waiting for the R5 since before we knew that was the name: an RF mount, higher resolution, 5D or higher level camera. The 1Dx mk2 covers a lot of bases. I've been wondering if I'd like a higher resolution sensor for photography (even though I routinely shoot a couple of 'portrait' and stitch into pano in LR and get high resolution that way.) The new 1Dx mk3 is probably all we've wanted in that body since the 1Dc. I've hesitated to buy it since I expected a RF version of that to come sooner. Then it became clear that it will take a while, but the rumours on the R5 started... and then the R5 unexpectedly delivered, at least on paper.

But there actually isn't all that much about the R5 that excites me. I'm not into 8K and I'm certainly not looking forward to 8K and raw. It's a lot more data than I need for my intended projection size (up to around 65 or inches). When I looked at the body it seems too small for me (but man is that 28-70mm f2 HUGE!), but I would appreciate the lower weight. But the 1Dx-style fits my hand well and I like the button layout and the feeling. I would not want to 'step down' to something that feels "consumerish".

We have a mk3 .crm link here on the forum but it doesn't look quite right to me, since it's badly clipped.

If I go for the 1Dx mk3 I will get a great camera, but I do feel that I push the move to RF quite a bit further down the road. I like what Canon is doing with their RF lenses and would like to be able to use them.

A bit of a rambling post I guess, but this would be my personal camera, so I need to look at the "big picture, so to say.

*=After having used the 1Dc since launch (basically a 1Dx) and then the 1Dx mk2 since 2016, I'm getting to the point where I might be ready to write a guide about that camera....

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-files&p=1986827921&viewfull=1#post1986827921

 

[Run&Gun]

I'd like to have a global shutter in my cameras, that said, I've never had a single client ask me about global shutter. Not once.

Also, I don't think early adopters will benefit as I just don't see clients being interested. So many cameras are good these days, you've really got to have something extra special to turn their heads these days. Bearded, tattooed guys, and girls on Instagram though...

Oh, and by the way, I like tattoos, beards and girls, but I'm sure you know what I mean

Honestly, that's one of those 'inside baseball' type things. I don't think clients ask for dual gain readout sensors, either, but they ask for Arri that has it and is part of the reason it looks so good. I don't think I've had a client specifically ask for Global Shutter, but I have had them ask specifically for my F55 and I've had clients/producers say that is one of the reasons they like/prefer the F55 and/or have been happy when I've shown up with it, not knowing specifically that's what I had(between the 5 and 55).

 

[Run&Gun]

I think RED is going to have a hard time meeting demand once the cameras are officially released. People are climbing over each other to get these pre-pre-release "beta" copies.

I don't dig the RED marketing and a lot of their user base attitude. It's honestly pretty off-putting reading the posts over this camera from supposed professional adults on the forum. But that hasn't stopped me from being interested in this camera. I live so far outside of that "RED world"...

I think it's going to be a great little b-roll camera and even perfectly fine for interviews and I put my name on the list with my dealer a few months ago. A couple of batteries, cards, lens adapter and some support odds 'n ends and I'm probably cooking.. The cards will be the most expensive things I'd have to buy to be up and running. I've got monitors, EVF's and iris rods and grips running out my ears.

 

[ahalpert]

But make no mistake, the Canon C5002 and C3003 are amazing cameras, and represent the best things Canon Video has ever made. I think the latest Cine EOS cameras are finally able to be more iconic than the chainsaws of a prior decade. In a way, I also think that Canon kind of out-did the DSMC1/2 concept. And for the first time, Canon C is competing with top cine cameras in brute force image quality. Not going to knock canon C any more, they have arrived.

I see some weird tests on the C500ii though showing that you need to set ISO in-camera. You basically can't push/pull the footage in post and get the same latitude. Even in RAW! Seems crappy to me

 

[Grug]

I see some weird tests on the C500ii though showing that you need to set ISO in-camera. You basically can't push/pull the footage in post and get the same latitude. Even in RAW! Seems crappy to me

If you're talking about the AG DOK tests I posted the links to, that same behaviour applies to most of the cameras tested - wide DR, but underwhelming latitude.

It really shouldn't be something people have to worry about much - since all the cameras these days give you enough built-in exposure tools that the only reason for poor exposure control is operator error. But it is an important behaviour to understand in order to squeeze the most dynamic range from the various cameras.

 

[Guest]

For some people, the iso on the C500mkii is preferable. It is actually adding gain. So, iso choice has to be made at the time of shooting, but the noise performance is better than camera that don’t add gain. Canon raw is flexible enough that it is easy to push a stop or two of iso in post and get that roll off, just have to underexpose in camera, if that makes sense.

If you want to adjust iso in post, it is easy with canon, there just isn’t an iso tab in post. No matter, just used curves or wheels.

 

[ahalpert]

I see - so, Canon increases gain and records a RAW file. Other cameras don't increase gain but record a RAW file and show a preview with a digital exposure lift?

 

[Guest]

I see - so, Canon increases gain and records a RAW file. Other cameras don't increase gain but record a RAW file and show a preview with a digital exposure lift?

Right, but you could create a LUT for the Canon that previews it for you too.

 

[Guest]

This is 5hrs long?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6819&v=Yobu7KCF9LM&feature=emb_logo

Some good information in general. Jarred Land comes on at 2hrs and 30min roughly. possibly before that.

 

[Guest]

If you have time, listen from 2hr30m to. 3hr. That 30minutes goes through some of the history and information about why they made it. And Jarred talks about possible release features of the Komodo.

I jumped in at the 2hr mark, so there may be good information before that, but I am not going to go back.

Things they talk about from the 2hr 30m mark
- Wifi features (exciting stuff)
- global shutter got to within the half a stop from the rolling shutter mode, so there was essentially little or no penalty for GS, and they just went with GS always on.
- modules, genlock, etc
-

After 3hr mark:
- Pre-record not implemented yet, but in the works.
- History and reasons for the design (not too in depth, but still very interesting)
- Storm Trooper Beta program Komodos still several weeks away. Meaning the Black actual versions are months away. At least 4 custom colours for the pre-release pre-beta program.
- monochrome Komodo will eventually exist
- timelapse
- sensor calibration is faster

Someone said it is quiet and good for documentary.

 

[ahalpert]

Ah yes. The history of Komodo. Just what we've been waiting to hear! My wife and I are considering visiting the RED Komodo Museum once it opens. JK.

Man, nobody hypes better than RED. It is a cool camera, though

 

[AndreeOnline]

This is 5hrs long?

Thanks for the link, James!

I also jumped in at 2h to get some 'warm up' before Jarred comes on. Interestingly, that seems to be the exact mark where someone asks if one of the gentlemen with an orange Komodo might be willing to to post a comparison to the P6K.

To bad that no one took the bait.... I would have loved to see that soonish.

There are lots of reasons to go with a Komodo, but for me it has more to do with 'staying with a system' than pure IQ benefit compared to something like a P6K. On the upside for Komodo: it's probably a good 'first RED' to buy, because IF you want to sell it later on, you'll get most of your money back and you're not knee deep in proprietary accessories.

Alright... I'll keep watching now...

 

[Guest]

4hr49min Grossman starts talking like Combatentropy.

 

[AndreeOnline]

Oooupps.

At 2h18 Jason seems to drop an unintended bomb that Komodo seems to take a step back on the compression side in that its .r3d aren't jpeg2000 wavelet-based, but rather the older normal DCT motionJPEG...

All the other guys just smirked and went silent with a huge "oops" look on their faces.

Maybe it gets clarified later in the stream...

 

[ahalpert]

I'll say this - I'm pondering the imminent release of the A7SIII since I already have an FS7. Some say it will have 12-bit 4K, some say it will use quad Bayer architecture to do a dual gain HDR processing. It could be cool (for a Sony)

Then I'm thinking how will the rolling shutter be? And I look back at A7III tests on youtube and it's pretty awful in FF 4K. Maybe the A7SIII will perform better?

But the issue does lead one back to Komodo...

 

[Guest]

Oooupps.

At 2h18 Jason seems to drop an unintended bomb that Komodo seems to take a step back on the compression side in that its .r3d aren't jpeg2000 wavelet-based, but rather the older normal DCT motionJPEG...

All the other guys just smirked and went silent with a huge "oops" look on their faces.

Maybe it gets clarified later in the stream...

They didn't really go much more in depth on that, but Phil Holland was talking about how good the image quality was.

All of them mentioned it is a league above BMP6K.

So, you can extrapolate from that.

 

[Guest]

I'll say this - I'm pondering the imminent release of the A7SIII since I already have an FS7. Some say it will have 12-bit 4K, some say it will use quad Bayer architecture to do a dual gain HDR processing. It could be cool (for a Sony)

Then I'm thinking how will the rolling shutter be? And I look back at A7III tests on youtube and it's pretty awful in FF 4K. Maybe the A7SIII will perform better?

But the issue does lead one back to Komodo...

You have the Fs7 and the S1H, so you are pretty set. You only upgrade if you want to. And since the Komodo is still a few months away from being released, you have some time.

You made a joke about the history, but I think it is good to hear that from Jarred, as it really helps with expectations. There is a lot that this camera will not be inherently. But like the Alexa Mini and countless stills cameras, people will kit it out to have more functionality, but by that time, it won't be a Komodo anymore, it will be a frankenrig. And it will, like the Alexa Mini, probably be an awesome A cam in its own right.

 

[ahalpert]

I have the S1, not the S1H. And numerous other Panny and Canon cameras but yes FS7 and S1 are my most recent and high-specced.

I would only buy another camera for

1. Making more money
2. Better image quality

Obviously, these are not mutually exclusive.

Making more money could be a direct upgrade to FS7 (FX9 or C300III). Or it could be getting a Sony B cam (A7SIII or FX6) to appeal to clients who want matching camera brands. Or it could be a RED Komodo if there is demand for it in the same sector. There's no one size fits all camera and I can't buy them all.

As for image quality improvement - it could be more dynamic range than I've got, RAW and/or 12-bit codecs, good autofocus, global shutter... It would have to be enough of an upgrade in IQ over what I've got already to merit buying now and not waiting for the next generation of whatever.

I've done this dance many times before. I got the FS7 because my clients like it (a belated smart business move on my part, whereas I usually chase IQ and make poor business moves) and I got the S1 because it has an adequate codec and i needed a low-light beast.

If I'm smart, I'll sit on my hands for a while and see what is actually making people money.

(Plus, if I end up making a movie in Unreal Engine and not live photography, it would make loads more sense to invest in computers than cameras at this point...)

Komodo gets my blood pumping. Saving up for a C300III or FX9 might be a better business move. Or just pairing an A7SIII with my FS7 might be good business, especially since the A7SII remains in demand in a certain sector until this very day. But could Canon C300III/R5 dethrone the Sony FS7/A7SII combo?

 

[Liam Hall]

Honestly, that's one of those 'inside baseball' type things. I don't think clients ask for dual gain readout sensors, either, but they ask for Arri that has it and is part of the reason it looks so good. I don't think I've had a client specifically ask for Global Shutter, but I have had them ask specifically for my F55 and I've had clients/producers say that is one of the reasons they like/prefer the F55 and/or have been happy when I've shown up with it, not knowing specifically that's what I had(between the 5 and 55).

Yes, fair point. Honestly, I might not sound like it, but I'm trying to like this camera as I'll be in the market for a small form camera when production gets back up to speed. ProRes and global shutter are two very strong selling points - but I still need convincing.