Red camera requirements?

W

whizzkid

Active member
Hi everyone,

Has anyone here filmed with the RED CAMERA? I have a shortfilm to film and I'm going to use the RED CAMERA. The thing is... I haven't used one before. My question is what production requirements does the RED CAMERA need? -- like kind of hard drives, tripods, racks... Things like that...

Thanks in advance for your help!
 
www.reduser.net

#1 requirement = Knowledge. If you don't know anything about it, please spend the money on someone who knows it in and out or your experience will probably be negative, from production to post to finish.

It is THE one thing that WILL destroy a RED shoot, the lack of knowing how the camera works so that it can be used properly for each individual application.
 
Kholi would know, he owns one. Think of the RED as a computer with a lens because that is what it is. You may have a challenge in PR in finding an owner/operator or a rental house that has them. Are you shooting in PR?

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
Think of the RED as a computer with a lens because that is what it is.

Dan
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it's really not much more a computer with a lens than an hpx500 is. all new cams are just basically that. at one point i guess they were kinda sketchy but not anymore. yes, more involved than grabbing an hvx. but not like ms dos with a lens. menus are easy to understand and laid out in a way that keeps things simple and makes sense.

yes, do study up on the camera as you should with any new camera but don't be scared. it doesn't bite.

in some ways there is more room for error. such as, if you forget to properly white balance that can and will be changed in post. you are shooting RAW. the sensor simply records what it sees. all color, detail, contrast, curve settings are manipulated in post in a controlled environment. welcome to DP heaven.
 
Kholi said:
www.reduser.net

#1 requirement = Knowledge. If you don't know anything about it, please spend the money on someone who knows it in and out or your experience will probably be negative, from production to post to finish.

It is THE one thing that WILL destroy a RED shoot, the lack of knowing how the camera works so that it can be used properly for each individual application.
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Thanks Kholi... I will research on the site you sent me. Thanks for that advice.
 
puredrifting said:
Kholi would know, he owns one. Think of the RED as a computer with a lens because that is what it is. You may have a challenge in PR in finding an owner/operator or a rental house that has them. Are you shooting in PR?

Dan
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Hey Dan,

Yeap we are actually filming here in PR. There is a rental house here that have packages for this camera. There has been many international films being shot here all the time and many have used the RED camera. We actually have the new johnny Depp movie being filmed here now - Rum diaries.

I just never had the chance to actually operate one and understand it's workings. Now I have a chance and I cant fail.
 
Read, research and learn all you can would be my advice. Cheez is correct, you are protected from screw ups in a way because the camera does shoot s form of RAW, but there are a lot of gotchas with the camera too like IR filtering, 80D filtering for blue channel noise when shooting greenscreens, etc.

And the post workflow is pretty intricate and involved, I would definitely speak with some of the popular post houses that are specializing in the RED workflow, perhaps there is one in PR?

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
Read, research and learn all you can would be my advice. Cheez is correct, you are protected from screw ups in a way because the camera does shoot s form of RAW, but there are a lot of gotchas with the camera too like IR filtering, 80D filtering for blue channel noise when shooting greenscreens, etc.

And the post workflow is pretty intricate and involved, I would definitely speak with some of the popular post houses that are specializing in the RED workflow, perhaps there is one in PR?

Dan
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That I really don't know coz I'm guessing all the production is done here then when in post they all go back to US or wherever. but will research on that....

I noticed that. Changing f-stops in the RED camera is different too... and there are no ND filters. I know that there's the ASA but this is really not your opening this is more the speed of your film. There's shutter speeds but cant seem to know how you expose with this camera.
 
You expose just they way you would with any other camera. Use the tools built into the camera (waveform, false color, etc) and set your f-stop accordingly. It does not have built in ND filters so when shooting outside you will need a mattebox for filters.

It's not hard to shoot, quite easy actually. At the same time though you aren't going to be shooting 5 minutes after you get to the location...
 
Whizzkid , soy de PR tambien ( San Juan ). Me alegra ver mas de nosotros rodando por aqui. Suerte en tu proyecto.
 
whizzkid said:
That I really don't know coz I'm guessing all the production is done here then when in post they all go back to US or wherever. but will research on that....

I noticed that. Changing f-stops in the RED camera is different too... and there are no ND filters. I know that there's the ASA but this is really not your opening this is more the speed of your film. There's shutter speeds but cant seem to know how you expose with this camera.
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this is true. you should have a set of external ND filters on hand. you can use your ISO settings to "stop down" but not really the proper way to do it. you can stop down the iris to get proper exposure but if you close down too far you are going to lose your shallow DOF somewhat. you can speed up your shutter but this affects the look drastically. so with a variety of ND filters you can get your exposure without having to stop down the lens more than you want to or mess with the shutter. in this respect, shooting on the RED is like shooting film. no ND wheel on a 35mm cam either. you can get screw on filters but better to have a mattebox with 4x5 or whatever size filters you can just drop in. make sure at least one of your ND filters is a "hot mirror" this has an IR filter built in as well. when using lots of ND, you will likely have IR problems without this filter as ND filters don't filter out infrared light.
 
cheezweezl said:
this is true. you should have a set of external ND filters on hand. you can use your ISO settings to "stop down" but not really the proper way to do it. you can stop down the iris to get proper exposure but if you close down too far you are going to lose your shallow DOF somewhat. you can speed up your shutter but this affects the look drastically. so with a variety of ND filters you can get your exposure without having to stop down the lens more than you want to or mess with the shutter. in this respect, shooting on the RED is like shooting film. no ND wheel on a 35mm cam either. you can get screw on filters but better to have a mattebox with 4x5 or whatever size filters you can just drop in. make sure at least one of your ND filters is a "hot mirror" this has an IR filter built in as well. when using lots of ND, you will likely have IR problems without this filter as ND filters don't filter out infrared light.
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This troubles me... How do I use my light meter then for this if I only have 2 options for exposing? - the ASA and the SHUTTER? how do you translate that into your light meter? A light meter shows your fstop (which I dont know where it is in the camera) - your ASA. I dont know Im lost here...
 
Will and Cheez are gonna hate me but I am going to [respectuflly!] disagree with you both. Hehe.

A) It's definitely much different than an HPX500. With an HPX line-up of cameras, what you see is seriously what you get. You will deal with camera settings MUCH differently on an HPX500, 2000, 3000 or even 200 than you will a RED camera. And if you're treating it like an HPX500 then chances are you are not using it to its fullest potential.

RED is not What You See Is What You Get and that school of thought needs to be tossed out immediately.

It's no different than shooting RAW on a DSLR, and learning how to use a DSLR in general will prepare you for shooting RED. It is VERY different from an HPX500.

Cheez also mentions that not properly white balancing can be changed in post. That is a Fact. The flipside of that is that Color Balance IN CAMERA really DOES have an effect on your final image. I invite you to test this out if you have the chance and tell me what the noise characteristics look like versus if you shot with the proper balance in the first place.

If you don't ever want to worry about your white balance flipping, employ a Blue Filter (80B is popular) and always balance @ 5000K. Disable the user buttons that allow for a quick Color Temp switch and grade-to-taste in post. You'll end up with an amazingly clean image a the expense of more time spent in the grading room.

If noise isn' an issue, just make sure that you're always balanced properly to maximize your final image.


B) Will says you expose how you would any other camera. This isn't entirely true either. Every single situation will need to be processed mentally in a different fashion that the one before it or coming after it. Exposing in daylit scenarios is a completely different shooting scenario than exposing for night or lowlit interior setups.

ISO values do have an effect on your image, and employing the proper ISO value for each situation will determine how your final image is captured. It is soley dependent on what you are trying to achieve with your image.

Also, the meters, waveforms and histograms provided by camera are nearly always innacurate. They show exactly what the LCD sees, not what the camera lens sees. As in, whatever color space you're monitoring in, that's what the histograms feed. Thus, most of the time they're completely wrong and if you've based your raw image on that, you may be disappointed when you get back to camp.

You must be careful when monitoring from the camera's outputs, and just about anything it sends out of the video feed. I personally never shoot ANYTHING outside of the RAW gamma. Everything I do I'm ALWAYS looking at the raw, and Clients have adjusted monitors to show what the image will look like in a REC709 color space.

The DIT or REDuser/owner with knowledge and vast experience of the cameras abilities in production and post will surely shine much brighter than those who pick up the camera and shoot like they used to with other systems. If you're going to shoot RED I implore you to seek someone with knowledge, they're generally willing to come out for dimes and you won't regret learning what they have to teach you.

Cheez is right, you should carry NDs with you at all times. Including a Hot Mirror or Combo's and absolutely a Polarizer.

Metering will be dependant on situation. I guarantee you that setting your meter at 320 ASA and the camera at 320 ISO will not yield the results that you're expecting.
 
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This is why I would never shoot RED without an owner operator or an AC that knew all of this stuff. I can DP and light for the RED but actually manipulating the camera and data is a whole other ball game as Kholi has clarified for us.

I have gone to a few of the RED User Group meetings in LA and the camera is a cool, yet complex tool if you don't have experience with it.

Dan
 
hey kholi. what is your preferred shooting ISO? just curious

so just to clarify, are you saying that the color settings in cam actually apply to the footage being recorded or are you saying that the way you have things set will affect the way you see it while shooting and in turn cause you to possibly expose or even light differently?

everyone i have ever talked to has said that while all your in camera settings are recorded with the footage as metadata, nothing is applied to the footage and every parameter can be changed in post. just like shooting raw on a dslr. is this not true?

i can see that setting up your monitoring to reveal noise and other issues could be a good thing. so you look at raw in cam and just tweak the client monitor to make it look pretty? what is revealed on the camera end in raw that is not present when viewing redspace or whatever?

the reason i asked about your preferred ISO is that i have found 320, which from what i understand is kind of the native ISO of the chip, to be a little noisy for me. i started lighting for and shooting at 250 and i have seen great improvement in image cleanliness.

i agree that if you are just run and gunning like it's an hpx500 you aren't getting the full potential of the cam, but you can still get amazing results. it's funny because now that RED is the new buzzword and it's so cheap to rent, everybody wants to shoot on it. lately i'm shooting a lot of low budget shows that i know don't have the cash to go into a proper post house and grade correctly. at best, the footage will get a quick correction in redcine, downconverted to prores 1080p, edited in final cut, and exported to quicktime. done. RED is the new HVX200. and the truth of the matter is, even if you don't do all the right stuff to get the absolute best and cleanest image out of it, it still looks great.

i agree with you that if you have the time and budget to nitpick, you should. that goes for any camera you are working with.

i always just kind of take the other side a bit because any time somebody asks about shooting on the RED, immediately people start chiming in with the "computer with a lens" bit. it's just not that scary to me...
 
whizzkid said:
This troubles me... How do I use my light meter then for this if I only have 2 options for exposing? - the ASA and the SHUTTER? how do you translate that into your light meter? A light meter shows your fstop (which I dont know where it is in the camera) - your ASA. I dont know Im lost here...
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think about this. how do you expose on a video cam?

you have nd's
you have your iris
you have your shutter
and you have gain

same on the red.

nd's are not built in to the cam, instead you put them in front of the lens.
iris is on the lens where it should be. instead of a wheel on the side of the camera
shutter is in the menus just like on a video cam. you can access it quickly with shortcut buttons.
gain no, ISO yes. but for the most part works the same way. in comparison, consider ISO250 your 0db gain and anything higher will be like adding gain on a video cam.
 
cheezweezl said:
hey kholi. what is your preferred shooting ISO? just curious
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It depends. Broad Daylight? 500 ISO. Indoors? maybe 320 depending on the lighting situation.

so just to clarify, are you saying that the color settings in cam actually apply to the footage being recorded or are you saying that the way you have things set will affect the way you see it while shooting and in turn cause you to possibly expose or even light differently?
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Color Balance/Color Temp, in my experience, has effected footage in the end. Namely noise characteristics. That's why shooting at 5000K yields a cleaner image. If that didn't matter then we could always shoot at 3200 and just change it to 5000 later. Not really the case.

It depends on the setting. The Color Space doesn't matter. Rec709, REDSpace, those aren't applied. Those curves and such are just metadata. The other stuff you do to the image does make a difference.


everyone i have ever talked to has said that while all your in camera settings are recorded with the footage as metadata, nothing is applied to the footage and every parameter can be changed in post. just like shooting raw on a dslr. is this not true?
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It can be changed in post. But it does effect the raw image. Again, definitely try it yourself and run your own tests. Not only has the color Temp blue channel deal been clarified, but ISO as well. Try shooting a daylit scene @ 320 ISO (or even worse, 250) and then shooting at 500ISO. Tell me which one looks better in the end.

i can see that setting up your monitoring to reveal noise and other issues could be a good thing. so you look at raw in cam and just tweak the client monitor to make it look pretty? what is revealed on the camera end in raw that is not present when viewing redspace or whatever?
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Not really about the noise levels viewing RAW. It's about knowing exactly what I'm getting as far as a RAW image goes. It's also a ton easier to light using RAW. It's just like using black and white to light, just a bit more saturated.

I do tweak all client monitors to look pretty, and close to REC709 as I think REDSpace is the ugliest lookin' space ever. Using RAW to view for yourself tells you what you're getting, REC709 and REDSpace do not.

the reason i asked about your preferred ISO is that i have found 320, which from what i understand is kind of the native ISO of the chip, to be a little noisy for me. i started lighting for and shooting at 250 and i have seen great improvement in image cleanliness.
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Noise is going to be subjective. I'm fine with shooting at 320 and even ramping it up to 640 in REDCine for underlit stuff. Your mileage may vary. It's no secret that footage goes through noise reduction before it's ever sent to print, I see no need to move away from that convention and I'm fine with noise.

However, the effects of your ISO in different situations will show. If you shoot at 250 ISO interiors and you've got lamp shades clipping, they're gone. At 500ISO, your highlights are much more mangeable and you've got LOTS of leeway to overexpose.

i agree that if you are just run and gunning like it's an hpx500 you aren't getting the full potential of the cam, but you can still get amazing results. it's funny because now that RED is the new buzzword and it's so cheap to rent, everybody wants to shoot on it. lately i'm shooting a lot of low budget shows that i know don't have the cash to go into a proper post house and grade correctly. at best, the footage will get a quick correction in redcine, downconverted to prores 1080p, edited in final cut, and exported to quicktime. done. RED is the new HVX200. and the truth of the matter is, even if you don't do all the right stuff to get the absolute best and cleanest image out of it, it still looks great.
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Sure you can. It depends on what you want to do. If you just want whatever image and the DOF and all that stuff and you realy don't care what's really going on then that's fine. There's no single way to shoot RED.

If you want THE best image, that's a different story. HPX500's and 3000's you paint before you go in and that's what you get. RED isn't that same tool.

i agree with you that if you have the time and budget to nitpick, you should. that goes for any camera you are working with.
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Nitpick isn't the word I'd use. Audience may never notice it but if it's my work, even if it's run and gun (and I know what run and gun means, stay tuned for the Feature) I still want the maximum range. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to manipulate the camera to into performing it's best. It just takes patience and research, or someone behind you that knows how to flip switches swiftly.

i always just kind of take the other side a bit because any time somebody asks about shooting on the RED, immediately people start chiming in with the "computer with a lens" bit. it's just not that scary to me...
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It's not scary. Should be more it's a DSLR. Regardless, peopel will shoot how they want to shoot. It's rare that I see any RED footage exhibiting know-how and prowess, most people just grab it and cobble together an image for the sake of saying they shot RED.

It's a good thing, it'll perpetuate class seperations. Those who really know and those who get by. And that's how the "industry" where day rates are worth a week's pay will still survive, even when everyone owns a super camera like RED.

Tools aren't important, even less so today. It's the knowledge that's worth all the money.
 
Just to clarify, I don't think that shooting with the RED is scary, unless you know nothing about it and are trying to just do it all yourself without resources, training and knowledge. Without those, yes, using a RED can be scary. I have seen some screwups with it. I have only shot with the RED One once and I had a very good owner/operator so I didn't have to deal with all of the intricacies of the camera and workflow.

Not sure if you have read Matt Jepsen's post about his experience from the PVC board? http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/freshdv/story/on_set_with_red_rant/ If you didn't know what you were doing with the RED, some of these issues could be disastrous

Dan
 
well i have shot red many many times. most of the time i roll solo without a DIT. sometimes without even an AC. my first time out with it i had no help. i got a 15 minute crash course from my rental guy, and i had the night before the shoot to go through the cam and figure it out. the shoot went great with no snags. the footage looks killer.

i was on a feature with 2 reds. our owner/DIT was one of the most respected red guys in town. i picked his brain quite a bit. he had us shooting at 250, 4100k wb, no color settings in cam. recently the guys at red saw the footage from the film and have added it to their new showreel. i guess there is more than one right way to do it.

seriously, you can get ultra techie with any cam including the red. nothing wrong with that but maybe not necessary in all situations.
 
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