Red announces Scarlet to ship in 2011

@normanbates that matches my calculations as well.

edit: since the miniprimes are marked at T1.5 its a fair guess to say they are probably f1.4/T1.5
 
J Davis said:
@normanbates that matches my calculations as well.

edit: since the miniprimes are marked at T1.5 its a fair guess to say they are probably f1.4/T1.5
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Are these the Red mini primes for the Scarlet... seems like I missed some thing or it got cut with the lawsuit wars...
 
Hello been a while... it's long sorry

Red releasing the scarlet on the 3rd is fair game to me, in fact it's good business... but I can see where some who don't care about it could see it as a negative. But let's be serious it's not like people are freaking out "which one will I watch I can only possibly pay attention to one..." plus it's not like other companies have done similar things in the past to each other, once again this is business.

If you look at the course of Jim's postings he was just being open as is their policy, he did not intend to stir the pot in my opinion (though it's no excuse) it's up to the people and how they take it and respond. Yes there were a few who went overboard but they are passionate and this involves their business heavily so it is understandable that some have gone off the deep end with this. Heck someone has turned it around here to say that Jim is stealing or hacking or whatever canon. Look for the most part (not everyone there are many reasons) the issues people have with reduser is not due to red but people and how they manage their emotions and handle themselves on an internet forum. I don't know about you guys but I find it's very easy to post and extreme opinion of yours on the net (that would be stated much more balanced and politely in person) that requires a lengthy conversation to explain it that you just don't have the time for on the net. I wouldn't be surprised if you would talk to some of these people in real life and got to the core of their issues or points you may not agree with them but you might just understand why they feel that way and respect it.

We all should not jump to conclusion on either side. If you would like further explanations of my views on this and the scarlet (and whether 2/3" is an appropriate sensor size) check out my posts on Reduser(and if you want to discuss maybe just Pm me). Just little on the lawsuit, I love ARRi and hope this turns out for the best, I respected Bravin and despite what he has done I hope things work out for him as well (he is still a human being like us all). Red could have kept quiet but as I have said it's so easy to post emotions on the net we all get caught up at times, I feel this is what happened with Jim, considering what has happened when he's deleted posts in the past I understand keeping them up. Though when I look at them I don't think they are bad, considering he is one of the only people with the real facts he probably knows what he is talking about and will explain later.

Thing is Red has attitude always have always will, nothing new. It's just at times some take it a little far and get carried away, even Jim, but we are all human and err, so lets cut them some slack. I'm certain if other ceo's posted as much as he did and was as open as him they would step on some toes every now and then too. Let's be honest it's hard to post that many times and not occasionally post something that isn't PC or in the popular consensus. Heck I was drunk and posted a few dumb comments when i herd about this all, now I still kind of reserved judgement but it was a little aggressive, but I won't delete or erase it because I said it and I want it to stand.

there's my welcome back rant....

Have a great week, stay passionate and buy whatever you want to buy, and don't buy whatever you don't want for whatever reason...
Peace!
 
Well said. It is unfortunate that innuendo, rhetoric and assumptions can fire up a witch hunt mentality in REDland. I think that JJ's nuggets of disappointment is simply a marketing effort to get brand recognition. It's irresponsible and transparent. RED is already notorious for its down the nose business style. This only serves to point out that they perhaps need a bit more business seasoning.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Oh the drama.

I don't like when someone wrongs another. Brevin, a former Arri (west coast) exec and former BandPro employee has gotten what he deserved. From what he got in terms of punishment it is obvious he didn't attain technical knowledge that had caused somebody considerable financial loss. Had he found some tech secret from BandPro's CEO email and used it to bleed them of millions, there would have been more restitution, in my opinion.

Now how Jannard was involved is not yet known. In fact, nothing is really known. The only details of Red's involvement have ONLY been from Red. We don't know if Jannard is suing because his email was hacked, or if simply his emails to Band (the CEO of BandPro) was read. If Jannard's private emails were compromised illegally, then fine, by all means he should seek legal matters of his private emails. His private emails.

I think it's irresponsible of Red, and quite the mud-slinging business move, to air their dirty laundry before

a) a lawsuit has actually been filed
b) before they can give any details about what they are accusing Arri (the company) of doing or of having done.
c) or even before the law/courts find Arri is guilty (or not).

I'm not defending Arri or being unfair to Red... but let's look at the facts. There are no facts. In the United States of America, people are innocent until proven guilty.

To play devils advocate, as of right now, we have Jannard and Jarred firing up the war helmet wearing zealot machine, by discussing how Arri has shockingly been taking part in the worst (non-specific) business practices Jannard has ever seen in all his years of business. It's so bad, Jannard is having to leave his post to fight legal battles full time over something (non specific) that has ruined his respect for Arri a company he once admired... etc.

Without offering what has been alleged and since Arri has been found guilty of nothing against Red thus far... what does hanging this dirty laundry out for RedUser's to see really do? Why did the Red community need to know this? What it does is another shady business practice... it depicts Arri as an evil and shady company (without basis), draws a line in the sand, and helps polarize the film-making community. Lemons into lemonade, huh red?

So, without giving any details, Red has simply made some vague comments against Arri, which has done nothing productive but turn their already loyal fan-base to further turn on their competition.

Now we should not take a few members reactions to judge an entire forum, but many have suggested Arri boycotts. Already a couple of forum members have alluded to these events as being reminiscent of the stolen Epic #6. I can only figure they are alluding to Arri stealing it? Or just the amount of heartbreak rippling through Redtopia? One big RedUser forum member has said he will sell all his Arri gear including his set of Zeiss master primes because he didn't want any gear with the "ENEMY's" name on it.

Enemy?

Is Jannards private and yet unknown problems a reason to polarize a filmmaking community?


I am a fair guy.

If a former Arri exec has done Jannard wrong, I hope they get him for it. I hope anyone else involved will have justice brought to them as well. What Brevin did was not right. He was caught, tried, and punished for his role with BandPro. I hope the guilty find their consequence and the innocent find their justice. But by talking about it now, Red has gone and done another act of business warfare. Without offering details or waiting until they can, this just seems like a pre-emptive smear campaign at Arri.

Irresponsible in my humble opinion. Airing their dirty laundry before their legal battle, without reason or explanation, Red has succeeded in throwing mud onto Arri and have lit the fire for a polarizing and scary hate-fest among their user base. Yet we don't even know for what, or if they are guilty of it or not.

The only thing that has been done in this cinematographer's eyes (I use products from both companies every day), is that Red has aired its dirty laundry for everyone to see, but has offered no explanations or details, which has only encouraged everyone at Reduser.net to gear up for war, but have no idea why.

I support Red if they have been wronged. I trust the US legal system will settle the matter, and I hope Jannard finds his justice. In the meantime, Jannards disappointment and anger at his competitor Arri is not yet reason for me to give up on Arri. When things become clear, and evidence is provided, I will then and only then make my judgment on their company, and decide if I want to do anything about it.
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Ryan Patrick O'Hara said:
Where can I find mini-prime info?

BTW, there are lots of fantastic S16mm glass out there. S16 is really similar to 2/3"... hmmmm.

http://www.visualproducts.com/store04.asp?ID=28&Cat=8&Cat2=20
http://www.zgc.com/webstore.nsf/allbydocidseo/FT7AG4EWZ.html
http://www.zgc.com/webstore.nsf/productsseo/cooke_zgccookesk4.html

Not to mention the many many many wonderful 16mm zooms from Angeniuex. They are old and contrast washes easily, but they are beautiful.
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Most of the mini prime info is very old, only bit I can remember is from the old November announcement last year(I think). they are all fairly fast, tiny, and look well built. I believe they were quoted at 900 each but that is subject to change.

yeah there is some real nice and affordable 16mm and s16mm glass out there that would be fun to use on the scarlet interchangeable*
 
Yeah... remember how a set of superspeeds used to be like 15,000, and now they are more like 25,000+

S16mm lenses are cheap because it's a pretty dead format compared to how many s16mm zooms were made back in the day.


If I had a spare 40,000, I'd buy up a whole lot of PL mount S16mm lenses right after they (if they) announce a PL 2/3" scarlet. There's not enough good 16mm glass out there for those. Especially zooms.
 
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S. Matthews said:
found some more info best I can find at this point I think unless someone has a copy, I think they took it all down as they are making changes to the lineup.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?60083-Scarlet-s-Currrent-Lens-Opportunities...

man I hope it comes out too, be fun having this new age camera with some old Angeniuex's on the front would be quite the sight.
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No mystery here - just the link isn't correct as it's not using the new IP - it'll take a little while for everything to re-correct and go back to reduser rather than the IP...

So, try this:

http://173.199.159.58/forum/showthread.php?60083-Scarlet-s-Currrent-Lens-Opportunities

 
Oh crap i forgot... didn't even realize the link from my account would not work for others.

No conspiracy theory I was just talking about how I can no longer find the November announcement with all the scarlet info(from last year), though that could be due to my own ineptitude.
 
If they actually release the scarlet fixed for around $6k (like they said) this is a day-one purchase for me. It will be a fantastic run-n-gun documentary camera!! Oh man I goose bumps. then comes the LONG wait for the Epic-S :-(
 
I have the feeling that RED is going to change Scarlet quite a bit.

They know that there is a huge market in the sub 10K, S35 interchangeable cameras. That's the SLR market, the AF100 market, etc.

According to what Jim Jannard says all the time, 1080p is out of the picture, so my hope is that they release an S35 3K Scarlet or a Red One "Lite" that fits in their DSMC ecosystem for a far lower price. It makes sense, since they haven't mentioned the EPIC-S anymore. So something tells me they are going to offer some affordable S35 option, maybe moving it back to the Scarlet brand.

What I really want is S35, RAW and High Sensitivity/Low Noise. If it's 1080p I can take it (for now).

For everything but feature films this should prove sufficient for a good number of years.
 
If I were to buy an interchangable scarlett, I'd really not want the mini primes. I suppose if they were WONDERFUL quality, I might... but I'd rather invest in a PL mount S16mm zoom lens. At least it's not proprietary, meaning I'd have a better resale value, right? Unless this mini-prime line is continued in many future Red cameras, and even other companies cameras (likely not), Buying a set of lenses could potentially die with the camera. As we know, lenses are a long term investment, and cameras come and go. If Scarlett is a thing of the past in 5 years, should Red not keep up with the mini-prime camera mount, we will see some useless glass laying around, or dying with the camera.

Just saying, I could sell a S16mm Angeniuex PL zoom easier than mini-primes considering a S16mm PL lens could go on Red1 at 2k, any 16mm film camera, PL mount scarlet, and any future 16mm sized PL mount camera, including PL mount Scarletts.

Seems more future proof than investing in a lens set that uses a proprietary mount which has an uncertain future.

Anyone else agree?! Plus 16mm primes don't make much sense to me. I love primes, love them. On narrative sets, I prefer them. However, not to be negative, but I feel the opposite about S16. It's a little easier to make a faster and higher quality zoom for S16mm at affordable cost than it is for 35mm. And since 16mm was used so heavily for news photography, war photography and documentary, there are some pretty amazing and plentiful options for some very nice vintage S16mm zooms. They are relatively fast and very small, since they were run and gun lenses.

Until the Angeniuex Optimo DP's came along, S35mm zooms were almost all large and cumbersome. Just now there are 'run and gun' high quality zoom options for S35mm. But there has always been a good amount of choices for 16mm, since it was a more of a 'run and gun' medium, and the projection circle required was not as large.

Anyone else agree?

Mini-primes are 5,000 for the set, right? 8-50mm

b872.jpg
Agenieux 11.5-138mm T2.3 is around 10,000.

b112.jpg
Arri/Zeiss 11-110mm T2.2 is around 10,000.


b64a.jpg

Canon 8-64mm T2.4 for around 8,000




I own an Angeniuex 12-120mm S16mm PL mount lens. I bought it for like $1,000 on Ebay. It's smaller than my Nikon 80-200 push-pull photography zoom. Good for run and gun, not so much in studio config. These lenses above are bigger, but not nearly as big as S35mm zooms. These are probably like a normal professional 35mm cine prime, but longer.
 
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I've been watching all the s16 glass get bought up ever since the scarlet was announced. David Rasberry on scarletuser/reduser has quite a huge collection now. There has also been a few posts as people have observed the rising prices and increasing scarcity but its still around.

I'm watching carefully and assessing and will make my decision when I have more info. I love cine zooms but a lot of the s16 cine zooms are a little slow. I'll need T1.5 at 16mm for mcu and cu's. What surprises me about Hutsons post is the wide going from 6mm to 6.5mm. Even though its only .5mm thats quite a jump in field of view.
 
here's the most recent pic of miniprimes that I've found

taken in june this year by Hutson at Cinegear. At $950 each for T1.5 thats a hard price to beat

attachment.php
 
J Davis said:
I've been watching all the s16 glass get bought up ever since the scarlet was announced. David Rasberry on scarletuser/reduser has quite a huge collection now. There has also been a few posts as people have observed the rising prices and increasing scarcity but its still around.

I'm watching carefully and assessing and will make my decision when I have more info. I love cine zooms but a lot of the s16 cine zooms are a little slow. I'll need T1.5 at 16mm for mcu and cu's. What surprises me about Hutsons post is the wide going from 6mm to 6.5mm. Even though its only .5mm thats quite a jump in field of view.
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Yeah. For sure!

A 100mm and a 135mm is 35mm of difference, yet the FoV is just slightly different. However the difference between a 25mm and 18mm is just 7mm... but it's much much wider. There is a huge difference... however, if you're used to AF100 or GH2 sensors, a 6.5mm is around an 13mm, for 4/3" FoV right? Isn't that wide enough? I figure 16mm on an AF100 is the widest of wides I desire. I just had a Duclos PL modded 11-16 the other day, and I only really use the 16mm side of that zoom. So if I were to get a scarlett, my requirements for FoV/Focal length would fall around a 8mm or 9mm in 2/3" country, so I figure something like that Canon would be good.

I totally get your speed requirement. If you're gonna try and get some of that shallow DoF back, you better open up. I'm sure the mini-primes will be more sharp than those zooms. But those zooms not only offer more range, but they have some really cool 'character'. Of course, they are slow and perform best closed to a T/4, usually. However, if the Scarlett is 2/3", which we are 99% certain it is, that would be the perfect documentary camera for me, and on a doc, I'd want zooms. To me, primes are at home with narrative cine production and I, personally, will be using a RedMX, Epic, Alexa, F3 or other camera if doing narrative cine work. The Scarlett would really only make sense to me to be my choice for documentary. But that's not to say everyone feels similarly. For some, this will be their big narrative cine camera.

That's where I stand. This camera seems like the perfect run and gun camera, so tiny little primes don't really make sense to the 'on the go' mentality and potential I see for this camera. I guess that is what the fixed lens zoom version will appeal to. I hope their lenses have character. I guarantee if you buy a high quality Angeniuex zoom kept in good shape, it will have filmic qualities that will make you drool. Those older Cooke and Angie zooms are just beautiful. They have a little contrast loss, but flare nicely have a soft texture. I dunno.

I'm sure the mini primes will be nice. The specs sure are good for focal length and speed.
 
If I were a DP in your shoes I would be thinking the same. s35 for narrative and s16 for doc, events and sports. zoom is so much better for that.
But I'm not a working DP. Self funded narrative is a different ballgame and its all about shaving costs and getting the most with the least overheads.
 
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