steev'sHVX
Well-known member
ok so filmed a rap concert and the audio came out horrible. so now i want to record the audio(beat and rappers mic) straight from the djs mixer so what do i need to do this?what kind of transmitter/reciever will do this?
Recording live
- Thread starter steev'sHVX
- Start date
The best thing you can do to record a live music performance is to negotiate a custom mix from the house console, but that's very difficult to do.
The second best is to rig a feed from the house console that's just a copy of the house mix, but this is guaranteed not to be a very good signal all on its own. So set a mic up to record the room as well, and mix the two together in post. The board feed will give you a strong, dry signal, and the room mic will help compensate for the fact that mix for house and mix for recording are two different beasts. The room mic will fill in what's missing.
There are several ways you can go, and it really depends on how much freedom of movement you need with the camera.
One solution takes a hard-line board feed (XLR cable to the camera) and a mic on a stand also run to the camera by cable. This limits your movement, but allows you to shoot and monitor the recorded audio at the same time. And with no wireless signals, you won't have to worry about RF hits/dropouts.
Another solution is to place a small, portable recorder somewhere where it can take both the board feed and a stationary room mic. Then make sure you have a camera mic on for reference, and to help sync in post. There's a major disadvantage here in that you cannot monitor the audio... unless you have some one else there to assist, and you can assign that person to the recorder for the night.
Or you could try and go wireless all the way. Most beltpack transmitters, like the Sennheiser G3, can take a line-level input. And a wireless with an XLR plug-on transmitter could link you to a stationary room mic. You will be able to monitor the audio as you shoot, but the major disadvantage here is that you're now wireless and subject to any problems that the wireless systems may have with no backup in case of failure.
And the reason I keep talking about a stationary room mic is that audio from an on-camera mic will not be reliable for the overall mix. As the camera moves, the sound changes, and that inconsistency will be a challenge in post.
By utilizing the second option, setting a recorder up somewhere for the primary audio, also allows you to cheat out a total of four record channels, since the camera channels are now open. An on-cam mic in this case would allow you to focus in on screaming fans as you get the camera close to them.
Please note that, no matter what you do, there are two things that will save your sound: thorough pre-production sound checks for signal calibration, and monitoring your audio (with good headphones, such as Sony MDR-7506) while you record.
The second best is to rig a feed from the house console that's just a copy of the house mix, but this is guaranteed not to be a very good signal all on its own. So set a mic up to record the room as well, and mix the two together in post. The board feed will give you a strong, dry signal, and the room mic will help compensate for the fact that mix for house and mix for recording are two different beasts. The room mic will fill in what's missing.
There are several ways you can go, and it really depends on how much freedom of movement you need with the camera.
One solution takes a hard-line board feed (XLR cable to the camera) and a mic on a stand also run to the camera by cable. This limits your movement, but allows you to shoot and monitor the recorded audio at the same time. And with no wireless signals, you won't have to worry about RF hits/dropouts.
Another solution is to place a small, portable recorder somewhere where it can take both the board feed and a stationary room mic. Then make sure you have a camera mic on for reference, and to help sync in post. There's a major disadvantage here in that you cannot monitor the audio... unless you have some one else there to assist, and you can assign that person to the recorder for the night.
Or you could try and go wireless all the way. Most beltpack transmitters, like the Sennheiser G3, can take a line-level input. And a wireless with an XLR plug-on transmitter could link you to a stationary room mic. You will be able to monitor the audio as you shoot, but the major disadvantage here is that you're now wireless and subject to any problems that the wireless systems may have with no backup in case of failure.
And the reason I keep talking about a stationary room mic is that audio from an on-camera mic will not be reliable for the overall mix. As the camera moves, the sound changes, and that inconsistency will be a challenge in post.
By utilizing the second option, setting a recorder up somewhere for the primary audio, also allows you to cheat out a total of four record channels, since the camera channels are now open. An on-cam mic in this case would allow you to focus in on screaming fans as you get the camera close to them.
Please note that, no matter what you do, there are two things that will save your sound: thorough pre-production sound checks for signal calibration, and monitoring your audio (with good headphones, such as Sony MDR-7506) while you record.
steev'sHVX
Well-known member
thanks for the advice! so i think lookin at the Sennheiser G3 for what i want to do and what would be a good portable recorder
steev'sHVX
Well-known member
Thanks again
atomick
Active member
[edit: CV2 beat me to some of those audio recorder recommendations... 
]
Some ideas and caveats to add to Cv2's excellent advice:
- Most wireless transmitters are mono, not stereo. It's up to you if this is a limitation, or if you wanna spring for two units or a spendy stereo receiver.
- With a room full of people with cell phones that you control, watch out for GSM-style interference on any wireless audio. If you go wireless, do a dry run where you attend and record audio of another show before your real session/shoot. No sense in leaving the Main Event to chance without some testing.
- For line in, anything from the Zoom H4n to the Fostex FR2-LE would work. You're bypassing any portable-recorder preamps, so the signal should be pretty clean (almost) regardless of the recorder.
]Some ideas and caveats to add to Cv2's excellent advice:
- Most wireless transmitters are mono, not stereo. It's up to you if this is a limitation, or if you wanna spring for two units or a spendy stereo receiver.
- With a room full of people with cell phones that you control, watch out for GSM-style interference on any wireless audio. If you go wireless, do a dry run where you attend and record audio of another show before your real session/shoot. No sense in leaving the Main Event to chance without some testing.
- For line in, anything from the Zoom H4n to the Fostex FR2-LE would work. You're bypassing any portable-recorder preamps, so the signal should be pretty clean (almost) regardless of the recorder.
steev'sHVX
Well-known member
in otherwords itll cost an arm n a leg for what i want.
atomick
Active member
Doesn't have to cost a ton, no...it just depends what you want to accomplish. Depending on how you want to - and can - set things up at the venue, you could run cables from the board to your camera and be done with it. But the layout of the venue may prevent this, depending on your filming position.
Just want the audio from the board? Throw something as cheap as a Zoom H2 with a stereo y-splitter, that's $200. Now, want better audio quality? Spend a few hundred more for better cables and a Zoom H4n.
Want a room mic? Use the built-in one on your camera, if you have it, turn the gain WAAAAY down, costs nothing. Want better quality? Buy an external mic and run it to the camera, sync camera and board recording in post...that's maybe $100 to $200 if you get a cheap dynamic mono mic like a Shure SM58.
It's when you want to go wireless that the cost adds up. Want mono from the board? Get a G3. Want stereo? Buy two G3's or a 2-unit kit. Want a better recorder? That costs. Rather mix the board and room mic signals and record straight to camera? Then buy a mixer and cables.
As you can see, you can go DV Rebel/guerilla or go pro. What you want to do can be done any number of ways. Just know your budget and work to that, setting your expectations along the way.
Just want the audio from the board? Throw something as cheap as a Zoom H2 with a stereo y-splitter, that's $200. Now, want better audio quality? Spend a few hundred more for better cables and a Zoom H4n.
Want a room mic? Use the built-in one on your camera, if you have it, turn the gain WAAAAY down, costs nothing. Want better quality? Buy an external mic and run it to the camera, sync camera and board recording in post...that's maybe $100 to $200 if you get a cheap dynamic mono mic like a Shure SM58.
It's when you want to go wireless that the cost adds up. Want mono from the board? Get a G3. Want stereo? Buy two G3's or a 2-unit kit. Want a better recorder? That costs. Rather mix the board and room mic signals and record straight to camera? Then buy a mixer and cables.
As you can see, you can go DV Rebel/guerilla or go pro. What you want to do can be done any number of ways. Just know your budget and work to that, setting your expectations along the way.
steev'sHVX
Well-known member
i always go pro. sounds like i need the zoomh4n. that will work in multiple situations. i have to research n step my audio game up tho.
so say if i had a shotgun mic on camera.
and the ZoomH4n hooked up to the house mixer.
shotgun for crowd sound and sync in post
zoomh4n to record the voice and intrumental from the house console.
does the zoom work like that?
so say if i had a shotgun mic on camera.
and the ZoomH4n hooked up to the house mixer.
shotgun for crowd sound and sync in post
zoomh4n to record the voice and intrumental from the house console.
does the zoom work like that?
There are a couple of things you can do with the Zoom, depending on where the house mixer is set up. If there's a house console in the middle/back of the room, you can take a board feed (stereo, even) into the Zoom's XLR-1/4" combo ins (use the 1/4" for line level). Then, the on-baord XY stereo mics can record at the same time to capture the room, and you'll get all four channels in post.
If the mixer is not in a convenient location, then you'll want it to be closer to the board. Take a board feed into one of the external inputs, and run a mic cable from your room mic to the other input of the Zoom.
I'd go cardioid, not shotgun, for the room mic. A shotgun isn't going to give you the best results in that environment.
steev'sHVX
Well-known member
thanks c2v makes sense now. your my new audio guy. and i now need a zoom at least its not another 2k piece of equip like everytihng else i need ha
Here is another idea I have just set myself up for, but not actually done yet. It is less expensive than a couple of G-2s and will give you better recording and control.
Use a laptop and a MOTU Traveller firewire audio interface. This gives you 4 phantom preamps and 4 more line inputs. Midi too if you ever need that. This would give you all the inputs you need and more to capture the feed, ambient, etc. In fact with this, and some mics, you might even consider skipping the board feed. It has good limiters and lots of other spiffy software and hardware features, including some TC options, which I am just learning now. So don't ask me too many details just yet. This has become the audio interface for for my editing suite also.
I think the H4 or variants are great, but this solves a bunch of problems all at once, with much more flexibility and probably better quality audio, albeit with a less portable package than a Zoom.
Price = $875. Your laptop, assuming you have one, needs firewire 400. I guess I shouldn't assume that.
Best Regards,
Grant
Use a laptop and a MOTU Traveller firewire audio interface. This gives you 4 phantom preamps and 4 more line inputs. Midi too if you ever need that. This would give you all the inputs you need and more to capture the feed, ambient, etc. In fact with this, and some mics, you might even consider skipping the board feed. It has good limiters and lots of other spiffy software and hardware features, including some TC options, which I am just learning now. So don't ask me too many details just yet. This has become the audio interface for for my editing suite also.
I think the H4 or variants are great, but this solves a bunch of problems all at once, with much more flexibility and probably better quality audio, albeit with a less portable package than a Zoom.
Price = $875. Your laptop, assuming you have one, needs firewire 400. I guess I shouldn't assume that.
Best Regards,
Grant
It's a good thought, Grant. My only concern is leaving a more complex setup like this unattended. It's a good solution if you have some one who can mind the laptop and recording the whole time, but not something to be left on autopilot.
Honestly, no audio recording should be left unattended, but the laptop adds so much more potential for failure.
Honestly, no audio recording should be left unattended, but the laptop adds so much more potential for failure.
C2V you are correct (typically you are), but I wouldn't leave my H4 alone for all the same reasons...not to mention that any of this stuff can grow legs when unattended.
I went this way so that I could be untethered, have improved preamps and not have wireless be my only option. It certainly does need a sound fella to work it, but so does most everything else. The traveller has various power options including bus and 12VDC, so you don't need AC, which could make this pretty handy for remote locations.
I looked at this in comparison to something like a SD recorder and thought of it as a bargain since I already have a laptop. Different in operation yes, but highly functional in a circumstance like the OP mentioned.
Best Regards,
Grant
Grant
Grant
I went this way so that I could be untethered, have improved preamps and not have wireless be my only option. It certainly does need a sound fella to work it, but so does most everything else. The traveller has various power options including bus and 12VDC, so you don't need AC, which could make this pretty handy for remote locations.
I looked at this in comparison to something like a SD recorder and thought of it as a bargain since I already have a laptop. Different in operation yes, but highly functional in a circumstance like the OP mentioned.
Best Regards,
Grant
Grant
Grant
Very true. I've made the point over and over again that, for various reasons, sound equipment needs to have some one there. That may or may not be practical in the OP's situation, though he should find a way to make it happen.
But if it must be left alone, it's easier to stash an H4n than it is to stash a laptop rig.
MadHMC150
DVXuser Sponsor
I have recorded a bunch of different ways - some supper successful some came out crap... Teaches you real quick what to do and not do when you get the crap though
If you are the only one you have to monitor your audio... I left a digirecorder un-attended and after a min or 2 the mix was way to high and audio was heavily distorted. My backup was wireless and was full of static due to the hugh amount of wireless being used... I was left with oncamera shotguns - not pretty.
I have always been successful getting 50'+ XLR cables and hard wiring in - then its only up to the audio guy (making sure you get the right mix). From here on out I will use a Laptop with Protools to record audio I want to MAKE SURE is good if I cannot get a direct line in from the camera. These portable recorder alternatives are going to be the similar situation.
If you can't monitor your audio = get an assistant or an audio tech, make it fit in the budget. I am only 1 person and my work would better if I could be shooting all 3 cams and recording aux audio - but its just not going to happen. :violin:
If you are the only one you have to monitor your audio... I left a digirecorder un-attended and after a min or 2 the mix was way to high and audio was heavily distorted. My backup was wireless and was full of static due to the hugh amount of wireless being used... I was left with oncamera shotguns - not pretty.
I have always been successful getting 50'+ XLR cables and hard wiring in - then its only up to the audio guy (making sure you get the right mix). From here on out I will use a Laptop with Protools to record audio I want to MAKE SURE is good if I cannot get a direct line in from the camera. These portable recorder alternatives are going to be the similar situation.
If you can't monitor your audio = get an assistant or an audio tech, make it fit in the budget. I am only 1 person and my work would better if I could be shooting all 3 cams and recording aux audio - but its just not going to happen. :violin:
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Whatever you decide to do, I recommend that you put an el cheapo solid state recorder like a Zoom H4 right in front of the stage and let it record as a backup. The sound quality will not be as good as a feed from the house mixer, but it will be better than a single dynamic mic in front of the stage or your camcorder mics.
Michael Foo
Member
In addition, with regards to the room mic, I would get an in-line attenuator (especially for rap music). I have one of these (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ca_AT8684_UNIMUTE_In_Line_Mic_Attenuator.html), but there are cheaper alternatives.