Recording dialogue between two characters with a boom.

T

Thomas Church

Active member
Hi guys, another newbie question.

I currently own a Sennheiser 416 and I would like to know what's the right way of recording dialogue between two people that are for example in front of one another.

Pointing the microphone at the person who is currently speaking and then going to the other sometimes give bad results when the operator misses.

What's the "right" way?
 
Maybe a mic with a more forgiving pickup pattern so that both speakers are within the 'bubble'? Maybe raising the mic so that the speakers are in a fatter part of the 'bubble' of the mic you have?
 
Speaking from experience, and trust me, it's been said here a bunch of times...if you're shooting indoors DO NOT use a shotgun mic unless the guy holding it is a professional. ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY ESPECIALLY when moving between two characters...because that means you have to be REALLY REALLY accurate with your mic placement.

If you have no other choice but to use it and amateurs, spend A LOT of time practicing the scene and listening back to the results until your boom guy gets it like second nature. And even then, take time to carefully review the dialog on set and grab some wild dialog before you wrap up. Otherwise you'll have an ulcer in post like I did.

And for god sakes MAKE SURE YOUR LEVELS ARE GOOD. You don't want to bump up messy audio by 24db in post.
 
mkfotos.com said:
Maybe a mic with a more forgiving pickup pattern so that both speakers are within the 'bubble'? Maybe raising the mic so that the speakers are in a fatter part of the 'bubble' of the mic you have?
Click to expand...

That's what I've been doing so far, but I was wondering if there is a kind of "standard" and more adequate mic one uses in such situations.

People told me the 416 is a generally good microphone for most uses, documentaries, interviews, etc, that's why I got it.

For interior dialogue a cardioid microphone is the best choice, isn't it?
 
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Thomas Church said:
That's what I've been doing so far, but I was wondering if there is a kind of "standard" and more adequate mic one uses for such situations.

People told me the 416 is a generally good microphone for most uses, documentaries, interviews, etc, that's why I got it.
Click to expand...

The 416 is an excellent mic but it's not an all purpose mic - such as thing doesn't exist. In situations where there is a high proportion of reflected to direct sound hitting the mic, such as many non-soundstage interiors, it isn't as well behaved as a hypercardioid.

The boom operator needs to be able to hear what he's getting in real time through headphones. Where you have both a boom operator and a sound mixer, typical for studio features, the mic on the boom connects to a preamp/headphone amp on the boom operator's belt and from there back to the mixer. Or if the boom operator is also the sound person, typical doco or ENG situation, the boom connects to a mixer the operator has in a bag he wears and from there to a recorder also in the bag or back to the camera. Either way, the boomer is wearing cans so he can fine-tune the mic placement in real time as the scene progresses. If he "misses" he'll immediately hear it and can corrct it. Also, in a dialog between two characters covered by one boom, the talent can be directed to pause a beat between each line to allow for the mic to be repositioned - skilled actors can do that while remaining in character and without breaking the mood of the scene. Or even better, two booms with two operators, each covering just one of the two characters full time.
 
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+1

Steve House said:
The boom operator needs to be able to hear what he's getting in real time through headphones. Where you have both a boom operator and a sound mixer, typical for studio features, the mic on the boom connects to a preamp/headphone amp on the boom operator's belt and from there back to the mixer. Or if the boom operator is also the sound person, typical doco or ENG situation, the boom connects to a mixer the operator has in a bag he wears and from there to a recorder also in the bag or back to the camera. Either way, the boomer is wearing cans so he can fine-tune the mic placement in real time as the scene progresses. If he "misses" he'll immediately hear it and can corrct it. Also, in a dialog between two characters covered by one boom, the talent can be directed to pause a beat between each line to allow for the mic to be repositioned - skilled actors can do that while remaining in character and without breaking the mood of the scene. Or even better, two booms with two operators, each covering just one of the two characters full time.
Click to expand...
 
Thomas Church said:
That's what I've been doing so far, but I was wondering if there is a kind of "standard" and more adequate mic one uses in such situations.

People told me the 416 is a generally good microphone for most uses, documentaries, interviews, etc, that's why I got it.

For interior dialogue a cardioid microphone is the best choice, isn't it?
Click to expand...

From this and other forums I've gathered that an Oktava MK-012 is a very popular, inexpensive choice for dialog, especially if it comes with the available pads and capsules.

The common wisdom is that a hypercardioid is ideal for indoor dialog, though if your speakers are more than 2-3 feet apart, Steve's right on with his suggestions, as a single static (or poorly operated) mic won't do.
 
mkfotos.com said:
From this and other forums I've gathered that an Oktava MK-012 is a very popular, inexpensive choice for dialog, especially if it comes with the available pads and capsules.

The common wisdom is that a hypercardioid is ideal for indoor dialog, though if your speakers are more than 2-3 feet apart, Steve's right on with his suggestions, as a single static (or poorly operated) mic won't do.
Click to expand...

Even when the subjects are within 2 or 3 feet of each other, a single static mic won't do for two person coverage. A hyper such as the Oktava is almost as directional as a shotgun and if it's allowed to point outside of a circle that's about 10 inches in diameter centred on the speaker's throat, the timbre of the sound changes noticably and the voice will sound distinctly off-mic. Unless you move one mic to follow the flow of conversation, or cover the pair with two mics, you have two choices: point the mic at one person full time so he sounds right but then the other person will sound like cr*p because he's off-mic, or point the mic halfway between them and then they'll both sound like cr*p because they're both off-mic. Yes, a single mic between them will pick up both voices but you need to be concerned with more than just having them audible, each of them also must sound clear, full-bodied, expressive, and natural. For that the mic MUST be pointed directly at the source. There are no shortcuts to doing the job right.

Try it if you have a mic and mixer or recorder handy ... while wearing headphones take a hyper and stand about 2 feet in front of someone. Have them talk in a normal voice while you sight along the mic and point it at one of their shoulders, then swing it slowly across their mouth and over to the opposite shoulder. Pay attention to the quality of their voice in the phones or recording and note how little leeway you actually have in mic aim on either side of dead centre on the throat before the quality of the voice changes and the naturalness of the sound starts to suffer.
 
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Well actuaylly weather it's a shotgun or hyper or cardio type of mice... You always have to point to the person who's speaking...

It' s not that you can say "ow...it's a cardio mice... which has a large 'bulb'.. so I can go to the kitchen while the scene is in the livingroom and still have good sound..."

And actors/acresses can indeed act that way that they leave small beats between there lines...and still act very good... But I mean GOOD actors/actresses... Not the"would-be" actors/actresses who buy themself 45466 cars and 5456456 villa's with swimmingpool before they even have done a no-budget movie...

More difficult can be during a fight/quarrel... then 2 boom operators is better when they're standing few feets from eachother. Or keep more distance so it sounds the same for both talents. It's better to have little more distance, which gives maybe little more "roomsound" but keeps the same "dialogue level"... rather then having one person very clear and another more "roomy".
 
dre83 said:
Well actuaylly weather it's a shotgun or hyper or cardio type of mice... You always have to point to the person who's speaking...

It' s not that you can say "ow...it's a cardio mice... which has a large 'bulb'.. so I can go to the kitchen while the scene is in the livingroom and still have good sound..."
...
Click to expand...

Absolutely! Was just responding to mkfotos' suggestion that a hypercardioid gave you more leeway in aim than a shotgun and could successfully cover two people at once ... it doesn't.
 
Steve House said:
Absolutely! Was just responding to mkfotos' suggestion that a hypercardioid gave you more leeway in aim than a shotgun and could successfully cover two people at once ... it doesn't.
Click to expand...

I guess we disagree then. A cardioid does have "more leeway" (a more forgiving pickup pattern) than a hyper, which in turn does have "more leeway" than a super, which in turn does have "more leeway" than a shotgun (a super in an interference tube)... otherwise why the hoopla about patterns? Barry's sound DVD, innumerable posts here and on other forums, etc. cover this.

Try this: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/articles/micpatterns.htm and http://www.dvcreators.net/microphone-polar-patterns/ (in the conclusion, and to my surprise, the presenter suggests that a shotgun can even be used to cover "one or two people").
 
mkfotos.com said:
I guess we disagree then. A cardioid does have "more leeway" (a more forgiving pickup pattern) than a hyper, which in turn does have "more leeway" than a super, which in turn does have "more leeway" than a shotgun (a super in an interference tube)... otherwise why the hoopla about patterns? Barry's sound DVD, innumerable posts here and on other forums, etc. cover this.

Try this: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/articles/micpatterns.htm and http://www.dvcreators.net/microphone-polar-patterns/ (in the conclusion, and to my surprise, the presenter suggests that a shotgun can even be used to cover "one or two people").
Click to expand...

Strictly speaking it would be correct to say that a cardioid has more leeway than does a hyper which in turn has more than a super. But at norrmal working distances for booming, 18-22 inches for the hyper, 24-30 inches for the super, we're talking about a circle of 8 inches or so diameter centred on the speaker's mouth for a super versus one 12 inches or so in diameter for the hyper. Neither one giving enough coverege to cover two people facing each other in conversation without seriously compromixing the timbre and presence of one or both of the voices.

Take look at the diagram at the bottom of the Sound-On-Sound page you linked to, the one for the MKH416. Notice the difference in pattern at various freqencies. Pay particular attention to the difference at 10, 30, and 60 degrees. What you're seeing is that not only does the level change as you go further off axis, the spectral response also changes with bass getting more prominance the farther off-axis you go. It's as if you were both turning down the level and at the same time turning up the bass on an equalizer. You can compensate somewhat for the reduced level by turning up the gain in post but you are also going to have a very noticable change in the character of the sound itself that is not so easliy remedied. Well, if the subjects are 3 feet from each other and the mic is pointed midway between them so you make an equilateral triangle, each voice is coming at it from about 30 degrees off-axis.
 
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mkfotos.com said:
I guess we disagree then. A cardioid does have "more leeway" (a more forgiving pickup pattern) than a hyper, which in turn does have "more leeway" than a super, which in turn does have "more leeway" than a shotgun (a super in an interference tube)... otherwise why the hoopla about patterns? Barry's sound DVD, innumerable posts here and on other forums, etc. cover this.

Try this: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar07/articles/micpatterns.htm and http://www.dvcreators.net/microphone-polar-patterns/ (in the conclusion, and to my surprise, the presenter suggests that a shotgun can even be used to cover "one or two people").
Click to expand...

yes, they have more "free play space"... But... people who are not soundpeople think "ow...it has a wider pickup pattern...so I can hold the mice 5450465456486468406406406408640646464 miles away from it.....
 
A Sennheiser 416 is almost certainly still the most used boom mic nere in the UK....as it has been for about 30 years now! Most sound recordists still use one.
Because the mic is pretty 'bright' and also to help cut out unwanted background noise, the usual technique is to mic 'overhead' with the mic effectively pointed vertically down. The key to avoiding off mic coverage when coping with dialogue...just simply look at the person 'not currently talking'. That way you can move the boom over to catch the other person without those 'late fades', or 'sit between them' if both talk at once!
Of course if it's a 'proper drama', then the boom op will get a copy of the script and try and learn the key words to crossing the boom over.
Stay with the Senny 416...just learn some 'boom technique'.

David

www.postfade.co.uk
Pinewood ilm Studios
 
I would never consider booming straight down over someone's head. My ears tell me I'm getting the best voice level, the best timbre, and the best outside noise rejection when my mic is positioned in such a way as to hit the top of the breastplate with the mic downward at about a 45 degree angle thereby using the actors body as a shield from unwanted sound, getting the richness of the chest sound and the top end of the mouth.

They only boom ops I've seen booming straight down over the actors head were grips who were given a boom pole and told "Here, you're a boom op now."

Postfade said:
A Sennheiser 416 is almost certainly still the most used boom mic nere in the UK....as it has been for about 30 years now! Most sound recordists still use one.
Because the mic is pretty 'bright' and also to help cut out unwanted background noise, the usual technique is to mic 'overhead' with the mic effectively pointed vertically down. The key to avoiding off mic coverage when coping with dialogue...just simply look at the person 'not currently talking'. That way you can move the boom over to catch the other person without those 'late fades', or 'sit between them' if both talk at once!
Of course if it's a 'proper drama', then the boom op will get a copy of the script and try and learn the key words to crossing the boom over.
Stay with the Senny 416...just learn some 'boom technique'.

David

www.postfade.co.uk
Pinewood ilm Studios
Click to expand...
 
Cardioid is wider than super, which is wider than hyper, which is wider than a mic with an interference tube design (ie shotgun).
 
Probably start off having your 416 pointing directly perpendicular to the ground inbetween the two talents and boom swing for lines. Move further up if you can't cover both. If not, point your 416 at about 45 degrees to the talents and swing/rotate your microphone to catch the lines (this is probably easier). Boom again until you get the lines. If that doesn't work, get a 2nd boom to cover 2nd actor (already suggested). Do whatever you can with your 416 to get some lines.
 
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