I will be DP on a short film in 10 days, unfortunately no budget. Our audio guy just dropped out and I fear we won't have a replacement. I have some audio knowledge. The producer is getting a loan of a Sound Devices 702 and Audio Tecchnica bp4027 mic. We will also have Sound Devices Mixpre-D, Tascam 6Od mkii and Zoom H4n, Rode NTG2 and Oktava Mic. I looked up the bp4027 mic, it is listed as stereo for on cam use so I am recommending we don't use it. I downloaded the 702 manual, it seems complicated, but as the 702 would be the best recorder I'd ideally like it to be the recorder used. My reading is that once the 702 is set up, it is basically pressing buttons for record and stop? When I am using the 60d mkii I set level using the Mixpre-d test signal at -20, thereafter changing level only on the Mixpre not the recorder. As 702 is pro and 60d mkii is not, and I believe there are several different measurement units of levels between pro and consumer gear, should the level on the 702, when fed test signal from Mixpre-d be set to -20 or to some other value? Any pitfalls that we should watch out for using 702?
Record level for Sound Devices 702
- Thread starter wjauch
- Start date
Rick R
Veteran
If using the 702, there's really no need to use the MixPre, though it's easier to ride gain. The MixPre calibration tone is @ 0dBu, either recorder should be set to -20dBFS with the inputs set to line. Do not use a stereo mic for dialog. Both the Rode NTG2 and Oktava 012 have a low output, but you should be ok with the SD preamps.
"it is basically pressing buttons for record and stop?"
.... yeah, it's as easy as a boom op's job, any fool can do it (and get paid big $$$$). BTW, I have a bridge for sale.
"it is basically pressing buttons for record and stop?"
.... yeah, it's as easy as a boom op's job, any fool can do it (and get paid big $$$$). BTW, I have a bridge for sale.
Bruce Watson
Veteran
What Rick said. You really don't need a mixer in front of a 702, but depending on what you're doing, it can be quite desirable. And with dialog recording, it's probably quite desirable.
If you use the MixPre-D as a mixer feeding the 702, do as Rick says -- flip on the calibration tone (1kHz to all outputs of the MixPre-D, and the mixer shows 0dBu), set the recorder to show you -20 dBFS, then make all adjustments at the mixer and leave the recorder alone. You should be fine.
If you've never used the MixPre-D before, know that its meter is showing you dBu, not dBFS. So you want to take your dialog peaks to around +8 dBu (that's not a typo, that is indeed a "+", and for visual reference +8 is where the red LEDs start on the meter). Also, set your limiters to factory default (+18 dBu) or a few dB lower if you're the paranoid type. Dialog peaks at +8 dBu, limiters at +18 dBu, and you're practically clip proof. And it sounds just great. Try it and see.
The MixPre-D's mic preamps are very good and can probably drive a low output mic like your Oktava just fine.
As Rick also says, never use a stereo mic to record dialog. Just don't. People listening really despise a moving stereo field; some even get sick listening to a moving stereo mic. This is *not* the response most people want from their dialog recordings. Just sayin'.
The weak link in your recording chain is the microphones. If you can scrounge or rent higher level mics you'll be glad you did -- an "indy favorite" shotgun mic might be the AT875 (really punches above its weight class) or the ever popular Sennheiser MKH 416. An "indy favorite" hyper might be an AT4053b or an Audix SCX1-HC. These mics get you to the level where if it doesn't sound good it's your technique not the equipment.
Finally, there is nothing about audio that's "basically pressing buttons for record and stop". It's not true for video, and it's not true for audio either. You wouldn't try to use a camera without looking at the view finder, would you? So don't use an audio recorder without listening to the audio it's recording. That's what headphones are for!
That said, the problem with doing both camera and audio is that humans really suck at multitasking. Everyone thinks they are the exception, but they aren't. What this means is that even if you're trying to monitor the audio, when you really have to concentrate on a camera move, you'll experience attention blindness with the audio. So if something bad happens (for example, someone kicks something on the floor that makes enough noise to be heard, or an airplane flies overhead, or a lawnmower starts up, or a crew member coughs, etc.) you won't hear it. And that is why you need a dedicated audio person. If you don't have one, be prepared for "surprises" in post. Just sayin'.
Jim Feeley
Veteran
Of course I agree with what Rick and Bruce write. But one minor tweak if you're forced to work in set-it-and-forget it mode, an advantage of putting the MixPre-D in front of the 702 is the ability to engage the output limiters on the MixPre-D to handle any unexpectedly high dialog (or other) levels before they clip. (IIRC, the 702 has input limiters, but not output).
In your situation I'd also be tempted to set the output limiters to Bruce's paranoid level. Like say, +14 or +16. Modern limiters actually sound OK and hitting them shouldn't ruin your dialog.
If you haven't already, give the manuals for both SoundDevices a re-read and bring copies of the PDFs on set.
http://www.sounddevices.com/support/downloads
I like Bruce's suggestions for less-expensive hypers (see if you can rent one or the other). The NTG2 is an OK low-end mic. I have a a couple Oktavas, but on a boom, unless they're in a good mic mount (say Rycote Lyre or better) and handled by an experienced boomop, they can transmit handling noise. I use them mainly for plant or danger-zone use (I use Schoeps for interiors)
If your boom op has a goodly amount of experience, you'll probably be fine and he or she can help guide the rest of the audio issues. If the person is unexperienced, good luck!
In your situation I'd also be tempted to set the output limiters to Bruce's paranoid level. Like say, +14 or +16. Modern limiters actually sound OK and hitting them shouldn't ruin your dialog.
If you haven't already, give the manuals for both SoundDevices a re-read and bring copies of the PDFs on set.
http://www.sounddevices.com/support/downloads
I like Bruce's suggestions for less-expensive hypers (see if you can rent one or the other). The NTG2 is an OK low-end mic. I have a a couple Oktavas, but on a boom, unless they're in a good mic mount (say Rycote Lyre or better) and handled by an experienced boomop, they can transmit handling noise. I use them mainly for plant or danger-zone use (I use Schoeps for interiors)
If your boom op has a goodly amount of experience, you'll probably be fine and he or she can help guide the rest of the audio issues. If the person is unexperienced, good luck!
Thank you Jim. Mix-Pre -D limiters are presently at +18, thanks for the suggestion to change to a lower value, will do this. I have looked at both manuals, Mixpre-D is pretty straight forward, 702, to me at least, seems pretty complicated.
The Oktava will be on a Rycote Lyre mount, I don't know about boom ops experience, but on a previous short film a first time boom op did fine with the Oktava on same mount and same boom pole, so I am hopeful.
Since my original post, production has been pushed back by at least one week, I hope they will find a replacement sound guy, or maybe the new dates work for the original guy.
The Oktava will be on a Rycote Lyre mount, I don't know about boom ops experience, but on a previous short film a first time boom op did fine with the Oktava on same mount and same boom pole, so I am hopeful.
Since my original post, production has been pushed back by at least one week, I hope they will find a replacement sound guy, or maybe the new dates work for the original guy.
Bruce Watson
Veteran
It's OK to do this, but you should realize that what you are doing is throwing away some headroom. There's a reason that Sound Devices uses +18 dBu as the factory default. Your input level would have to be absolutely huge to get the MixPre-D limiters up to +20 dBu where the amps can actually clip.
I did this when I was starting out with the MixPre-D myself. Set limiters down to I think +14 dBu. Then, because I didn't want to actually use the limiters, I pulled my "average dialog peak" down, so I was peaking in the +4 dBu range. Which is actually difficult for me to see on the MixPre-D (+4 is the last of the orange LEDs. So I have to see four orange LEDs lit to know I'm at +4, as opposed to seeing any red at all and knowing I'm at +8). But doing this means that instead of recording at -12 dBFS on the recorder (that's +8 dBu on the mixer), I was recording at -16 dBFS. And that's just the peaks, everything else is lower still. So my recordings were a bit noisy since I had to gain them up more in post.
When I got a little slack time, I did more experiments and tried out the Sound Devices recommendations. Sure enough, it works like a charm. And... because my recorder is weak (camera), the increased levels from the MixPre-D improved my signal-to-noise ratio in my dialog. Not a huge amount, but noticeable. And I can use all the help I can get! You on the other hand, recording with a SD 702, have a strong recorder in addition to the strong mixer. You'll probably have a hard time getting noise into your dialog no matter what your setting are (within reason).
I've been doing it Sound Devices' way for the last few years and I can tell you there's really no reason to pull the limiters down below factory default. You don't need to be paranoid -- Sound Devices has already been paranoid for you. Just sayin'.
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Bruce Watson
Veteran
If you're really worried about it, you can always call Sound Devices and ask them. Last time I called with a question was like three years ago, but they actually answered the phone and were quite helpful. IIRC they used to answer their emails too. I just don't have any recent experience with their technical support. People only tend to call with problems, and when a system is working for ya...