Recommendations for compact dual source recording?

[Alexis Evangér]

Hi all, long time, no post.

Currently working on a vlog series and my filmmaker bug is itching a bit.

I want to improve my sound overall and had an idea to record camera mounted shotgun mic to one channel (in camera), and record a more general stereo mic for whoever is behind the camera/background. Then mix in post as dual mono to taste.

I am looking to see if anyone has clever solutions for how to do this with the least amount of extra gear or at least the smallest with no batteries needed. Trying to run this very lean.

Is there simply a line splitter I can use to plug into my 1/8 jack that will compress each source to a single channel?

 

[Alex H.]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want any recording of the sound behind the camera? What's the end-goal here? Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to record stereo ambient sounds in tandem with dialog.

And for the on-camera shotgun, is this for dialog? That's the least effective place to put a mic for dialog.

But, if there are specific reasons for wanting the recording setup you're asking about, that may help us steer you in the right direction.

 

[Alexis Evangér]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want any recording of the sound behind the camera? What's the end-goal here?

As alluded to, this is for a VLOG. In case you are unaware, it's a sort of self directed (generally daily) documentary on YouTube. I generally shoot my partner and I while having conversation. The shotgun occludes my voice so would be nice to be able to control mix at certain points.

And for the on-camera shotgun, is this for dialog?

Yes, again, run-and-gun, self shot docu (VLOG).

Hence the minimalist request. It's bending the rules a bit as I am trying to insert actual filmmaking into a super minimalist setup (most only use a compact camera) but that's me.

 

[Alex H.]

As alluded to, this is for a VLOG. In case you are unaware, it's a sort of self directed (generally daily) documentary on YouTube.

Yes, I know what a vlog is. That's still a bit of a broad term, since these run the spectrum from single vlogger talking straight to the laptop camera in terrible lighting conditions all the way up to good production value on sound and lighting.

If it's just you (behind the camera) and your partner (in front of the camera), why not a lav on each? That's easier to record to separate channels, and to keep the mix under control while keeping dialog clean and clear. And wireless on your partner allows for movement, while you could use a hard-wired lav since you're pretty much attached to the camera. That requires extra batteries, which you said you didn't want, but it makes a lot more sense than the setup you've envisioned.

Regarding your original post: rather than a splitter, you're asking about a combiner to plug 2 channels of a stereo mic into one record channel of your camera. This pretty much defeats the need for a stereo mic, doesn't it? If, for some reason, you need a wide field recording behind the camera, why not opt for a cardioid, or even an omni? I mean, either way, you're going to get a lot of "room" in that recording (not to mention lots of camera noises), but if you know going in and that seems okay to you, then it's a whole lot less complicated than wasting a stereo mic on a mono feed.

 

[Alexis Evangér]

Regarding your original post: rather than a splitter, you're asking about a combiner to plug 2 channels of a stereo mic into one record channel of your camera.

Yep, thats exactly what I'm looking for. I was asking if anyone had recommendations on this sort of setup or if I just pickup a random 2 to 1 combiner and plug one end into the shotgun, and another into the general mic.

 

[Alex H.]

Yep, thats exactly what I'm looking for. I was asking if anyone had recommendations on this sort of setup or if I just pickup a random 2 to 1 combiner and plug one end into the shotgun, and another into the general mic.

A couple of things about this:

First, as per your original question, a shotgun mic plus a stereo mic means you're taking THREE input channels into your camera's 2 input channels. This is where an external mixer is an absolute necessity. As I mentioned above, though, a stereo mic is not the right choice for what you're doing, so that brings us back to taking to mics (I assume with XLR connections) and connecting them to the 1/8" mic input of your compact camcorder.

Second, does such a cable exist? Yes, but is it what's going to provide you with the right solution? Not really. Have you thought about power for your mics? They're condensers, and unless you have mics that can run off an internal battery, they'll need external phantom power which your camcorder does not provide. What your camcorder likely does provide is a low-voltage plug-in power for cheap electret mics, somewhere around 2.5V. This voltage can cause issues with other mics and devices that don't properly utilize it, and the Y-cable isn't wired to defeat it. So, that brings us back to a mixer...

There are a few options that are compact, but the likelihood that you'll avoid having to have other batteries is slim. There are small XLR converters from Beachtek and Juicedlink that take XLR inputs, provide phantom power and level control (and metering on some models), feed the 1/8" mic input of various camcorders, and properly defeat the plug-in power that you don't want mucking with your audio. These devices are designed to mount underneath the camcorder. That's really the only acceptable, yet most basic, way to accomplish what you want.

Again, though, is there a reason that lavs are out of the question? The Beachtek/Juicedlink would still apply, but the mic selection would be, I believe, a bit more appropriate.

 

[Alexis Evangér]

A couple of things about this:

First, as per your original question, a shotgun mic plus a stereo mic means you're taking THREE input channels into your camera's 2 input channels. This is where an external mixer is an absolute necessity. As I mentioned above, though, a stereo mic is not the right choice for what you're doing, so that brings us back to taking to mics (I assume with XLR connections) and connecting them to the 1/8" mic input of your compact camcorder.

Second, does such a cable exist? Yes, but is it what's going to provide you with the right solution? Not really. Have you thought about power for your mics? They're condensers, and unless you have mics that can run off an internal battery, they'll need external phantom power which your camcorder does not provide. What your camcorder likely does provide is a low-voltage plug-in power for cheap electret mics, somewhere around 1.5V. This voltage can cause issues with other mics and devices that don't properly utilize it, and the Y-cable isn't wired to defeat it. So, that brings us back to a mixer...

There are a few options that are compact, but the likelihood that you'll avoid having to have other batteries is slim. There are small XLR converters from Beachtek and Juicedlink that take XLR inputs, provide phantom power and level control (and metering on some models), feed the 1/8" mic input of various camcorders, and properly defeat the plug-in power that you don't want mucking with your audio. These devices are designed to mount underneath the camcorder. That's really the only acceptable, yet most basic, way to accomplish what you want.

Again, though, is there a reason that lavs are out of the question? The Beachtek/Juicedlink would still apply, but the mic selection would be, I believe, a bit more appropriate.

Hi Alex,

Thanks again for taking the time for such an in-depth look at my situation. But I'm afraid I must disappoint you. We are doing nothing nearly as professional for this setup as that. Our "shotgun mic" (the Røde VideoMicro) requires no batteries or true phantom power.

I miss-typed originally when I said stereo mic, what I meant was simply a cheap cardio or omni mic, probably one what plugs directly into a 1/8 jack again.

And I've definitely thought about doing this properly with a wireless lav Sen-G3 setup or something, but the cost and order of magnitude complexity for what is meant to be a simple and unobtrusive rig is disproportionate with what we are trying to accomplish at this time. Perhaps later. For now, I'm happy to get relatively clean audio.

What I was mostly looking for was a small/inexpensive/and novel solution to the rather specific issue that vloggers have, clean dialogue in front of and behind the camera.

I'll check in to a sort of Y combiner for 1/8' jacks and see where that gets me. Then perhaps I'll mount an omni off the back of the shotgun mic so it gets less handling noise.

 

[Alex H.]

What I was mostly looking for was a small/inexpensive/and novel solution to the rather specific issue that vloggers have, clean dialogue in front of and behind the camera.

Some vloggers have that issue. There are others who operate with higher production value. The issue is really only overcome by investing in a better solution. Small/inexpensive/novel don't generally add up to an improved audio game.

I'll check in to a sort of Y combiner for 1/8' jacks and see where that gets me. Then perhaps I'll mount an omni off the back of the shotgun mic so it gets less handling noise.

It's not just how the mic is mounted that leads to recorded handling noise. The mic being at/on the camera puts it in too close proximity not to pick up some of the noise, and the wider the response pattern then more sound all around the mic will be recorded.

The RØDE VideoMicro isn't a shotgun: it's a cardioid. That means it, too, will "hear" all the stuff happening at the camera end and your dialog in front of the camera will have way too much "room" in it.

Be cautious in searching for the right Y-cable. You're dealing with mics that have 1/8" TRS connections, and you're trying to plug two of those into a single 1/8" TRS input while maintaining left-right separation. Most of the 1/8" TRS Y-cables that show up on a search do not provide that separation, since they're generally intended as headphone spitters to allow two people to listen from one headphone output.

 

[Noiz2]

I'll chime in on the logistics and avoid the "you really don't want to do this" part.

1/8" mic plugs are not really designed to be friendly toward what you want to do. They are, pretty much without exception, consumer gear designed for people who have no real clue about what they are doing. So many of the 1/8" mic plugs are TRS and already split the mono signal and send it to both channels since their customer base doesn't know how to deal with mono. Many also use power that is provided on most 1/8" mic jacks (that you can't turn off).

So what you really want is something custom. Ideally it would block the "plug-in power" from the jack and take the Tip of each mic plug and connect one to the Tip of the cable going into the camera and connect the other to the Ring of the cable.

If you just use a Y cable you will most likely get both mics on both channels.

The set up as in mic arrangement, is not that weird. Old radio dramas used figure 8 mics to do pretty much the same thing.

The Quality issue is neither is going to be in a very good location. The on camera person is going to be mostly too far away and the behind the camera person is going to too close, unless you are locking the camera down and stepping away.

but...

 

[Alex H.]

So what you really want is something custom. Ideally it would block the "plug-in power" from the jack and take the Tip of each mic plug and connect one to the Tip of the cable going into the camera and connect the other to the Ring of the cable.

The RØDE VideoMicro needs the plug-in power, and I'm assuming whatever the second mic will be, also will need the plug-in power. So defeating the voltage isn't going to help, but now we're doubling up on plug-in powered mics on a single input.

 

[cpreston]

My suggestion is to buy a 1/8th stereo male to 1/8th female splitter/combiner cable and two extremely cheap lavaliers with 1/8th connectors and a couple 1/8th headphone extension cables. Each of you should wear one of the lavaliers attached to the headphone extension cables that run into the splitter that is plugged into the camera mic jack. It might not work if the lavs aren't getting enough power, but it should. The sound will be on a stereo split and you can either mix it to mono through the video editor program or just leave it in stereo since the expectations for the quality are so low anyway. In any case, two lavs is going to sound much better than any on camera mic.